The twin cheek of the twin cheeks

“Now is the time to look outwards, paint with broad strokes and set up an international commission, led by and for Scottish people, that seeks to learn from the few examples where at times in modern history the cause of social justice has beaten divisive nationalism.”

So said Labour leadership contender Lisa Nandy on Monday. Now if anyone has any idea what she meant, please let the rest of us know because we’re genuinely struggling. What Lisa tweeted is one of those sentences where you understand each of the words individually, but when you put them all together they make absolutely no sense at all. Perhaps Lisa is indulging in some Dadaist art project cunningly disguised as a Labour leadership campaign? Or maybe it’s one of those motivational posters, only written by someone out of their tree on meth.

If we were perplexed and faintly amused at the start of the week, by the end of the week Lisa had managed to make many in Scotland livid. During an interview with Andrew Neil as a part of her leadership bid, she said that the UK needs to learn from Catalonia in how to handle separatist movements. Her exact words were, “We should look outwards to other countries where they’ve had to deal with divisive nationalism … in places like like Catalonia”. No, really. She said that. Blinding people with rubber bullets, bashing grandmothers over the head with police truncheons, imprisoning peaceful independence campaigners and pro-independence politicians. Lisa wants “us” to learn from that.

This gobsmackingly crass remark can only mean one of two things. Either Lisa is an idiot who doesn’t understand what has gone on in Catalonia, or she does understand it and she’s quite happy to inflict violence and legal sanctions on Scotland’s independence movement too, a movement which has been entirely peaceful, law abiding, and concerned to operate within the parameters of the UK constitution. So which is it?

In Catalonia one of the major pro-independence parties, the ERC whose leader Oriol Junqueras languishes in a Spanish prison, is considerably more socialist than Labour’s ally the PSOE. But it’s the ERC which practises “divisive nationalism” according to Lisa. And notice that in her remarks Lisa said “we”, because those of us in Scotland are not “we”, but “they”. And then she preaches about divisive nationalism. She is of course entirely blind to the divisive nationalism of the British variety, because that’s a nationalism that’s better than all other nationalisms by virtue of not being nationalist at all.

What’s really astonishing here is that in England, Labour supporters loved Lisa Nandy’s interview with Andrew Neil. It’s only in Scotland that there is any outrage with her crass suggestion that the UK ought to adopt the tactics of Madrid in suppressing the independence movement in Scotland. There’s been not a peep from the supposedly progressive English left which constantly preaches the need for solidarity at us. Because it seems that the Labour party’s idea of solidarity is that Scotland must display solidarity with the Labour party, but the Labour party doesn’t need to bother displaying solidarity with Scotland.

Together with Jess Phillips, what we’re seeing here in the Labour party is a meeting of closed minds on the subject of Scotland with the Tories. Conservative or Labour, both are equally British nationalist, and both will happily traduce and arrogantly ignore the democratic will of the people of Scotland as expressed through the ballot box. Nowhere in any of these pronouncements from British nationalist politicians have we seen the slightest justification of why they believe that they have the right to ignore the democratic will of the people of Scotland, and to continue to ignore it for as long as it suits them. Nowhere do we see any attempt from them to answer the question for Scotland that their own stance raises, nor indeed any acknowledgement that any question might arise. But here in Scotland we cans see the question all too clearly. If the British state can ignore the democratic will of the people of Scotland, if it can ignore in perpetuity the outcome of elections in Scotland, then what does it serve Scotland to remain a part of the British state. If the UK will not take the votes and views of Scotland into account, then it’s not a union, it’s simply Greater England.

Meanwhile over in the Guardian, we see the Labour supporting Metrocommentariat’s contempt for Scotland in its full and unedifying display. Martin Kettle, whose articles about Scotland really ought to come with a health warning, has opined that Boris Johnson’s arrogant dismissal of the First Minister’s request for a Section 30 order as being more sensitive than the response of others within the Tory party. That’s a bit like describing a guy who hits you over the head with a baseball bat while calling you a bastard “more sensitive” than a guy who hits you over the head with a baseball bat then kicks you in the crotch and calls you the c-word.

Johnson’s reply to Nicola Sturgeon dripped with arrogant contempt. There was no attempt in his brief letter to give any serious reasoning for his refusal, merely the cheap trick of quoting the rhetorical comments of the SNP leadership in 2014 which were aimed at encouraging people to participate in a historic vote. That’s a spurious reason. Johnson knows it’s a spurious reason. Martin Kettle calls it “useful”, but doesn’t himself give any substantive reason why the UK Government can continue to ignore mandates given to the victorious party in Scottish elections without calling the issue of democracy in Scotland into question.

But it gets worse. Martin tells us that the Conservatives are not disposed to recognise a mandate for another referendum which is obtained at the Holyrood elections in 2021. This seems to be just fine with Martin. Anything to keep those uppity Jocks in their place eh. He is clearly aligned with Lisa Nandy and Jess Phillips in that respect. The attitude we’ve seen from leading figures in the Labour party and their cheerleaders in the London press explains why the Labour party is dead in Scotland and is going to stay dead. Labour and the Tories both display the twin cheek of the twin cheeks of the same arrogant, entitled, and antidemocratic British nationalist arsery.

But yeah, faced with this casual dismissal of Scottish democracy by British nationalism, Lisa Nandy was almost right. It only takes a few small tweaks for what she said to make perfect sense. We, the people of Scotland, should look outwards, paint with broad strokes and set up an international commission, led by and for Scottish people, that seeks to learn from the many examples where at times in modern history the cause of social justice has beaten divisive and arrogant British nationalism.

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66 thoughts on “The twin cheek of the twin cheeks

  1. These crass and quite glib sound-bites and slogans being passed off as some kind of analysis by Labour illustrates why they have no appeal to anyone who is the son of a labourer and a cleaner, like me for instance. They have nothing to say to me or for me. Jimmy Reid put it, “I never left the Labour party, the Labour Party left me.” The Andrew Neil comment to her that this is what Boris Johnson would have said seemed to go completely over her head.

    • I think he meant it as praise , and she accepted it as such !
      She has the makings of an excellent leader of the ”British Labour ” Party .

  2. she has “clarified” (sic) in a blog that she means the lovely current Socialist government in Spain – the one that has NOT released the current political prisoners and is still seeking Clara Ponsati’s extradition.

    Also “There are still siren voices in England and Scotland calling for us to turn inward”

    in Scotland that would be the British nationalists imposing Brexit upon us dear, not the independence supporters wanting to be part of the Eu or EFTA.

    and witters on about internationalism whist representing (and supporting) a Brexit constituency…

  3. It’s clear that she has no understanding of the history of Scotland, past and present. That or she’s just another Red Tory hypocrite. She praises the women of Dagenham for fighting for equal pay whilst her own party in Scotland blocked that (including legally) for decades for many, in particular poorly paid women, in cahoots with the English controlled Unions lurking in Scotland. Between them they used every dirty trick in the book to do so.

    Her party has been “defeated and divided” in Scotland because many prior Labour voters like myself were absolutely scunnered with their abysmal track record and could see that the Tories and Labour were no more than two two cheeks of the same erse and that would never change, as people like Lisa Nandy has just highlighted once again. If she is elected as Labour leader we can take it that she’ll have got off to a bad start in Scotland by p*ssing off at least 50% of the population. They never seem to learn, do they?

    • “They never seem to learn, do they?”

      No they don’t Petra and the reason is they don’t want to learn. They want everything to go back in time to the 90s or any previous decade where they could sit on their bum in a nice cushy job spout a few words of comfort to their voters and then get back to dreaming of a seat in the House of Lords where they don’t even have to sit upright but can get paid for having a snooze most of the day. Hugh Gaffney comes to mind. Happily the voters pressed the ejector seat on him last month.

      Now some people say that is where the SNP is now. I don’t believe that. The difference is Labour have proved they are troughers who have no interest in the people of Scotland. Time will tell where the SNP go. I for one am still positive about the SNP.

      • Well said Petra, your bang on the money with your comments. Cubby too, you’re dead right, they really don’t want to learn do they, totally deaf and blind to what is actually happening to Labour, specially here where they are deid, They’ll never get voters back in Scotland with thy’re current attitude.

        Great article again Paul. It sounds as if she’s advocating the Spanish way right enough. If anybody tries to hit this granny ower the heid wi’ onything, they better make the first yin guid, cause I’ll take it aff them and ram it where the sun don’t shine. Then I’ll likely get huckled. It won’t come to that surely, although I would put nothing past the tories.

        I don’t know how you keep doing this Paul, and seem to stay reasonable calm. I find that it’s not good for my blood pressure. Hope yours is doing okay.

  4. If this is not the most illustrative example of why we need to get out of the Union and quick, I really do not know what it will take?

    Leadership in the tories and prospective leadership in Labour simply do not have a clue.

  5. As Paul has commented a truly baffling statement,

    If anyone is still under the illusion this Labour Party are capable of inspiring and leading opposition to a right wing Tory government intent in a return to Victorian values needs their head examined,

    The only candidate who seems to have any understanding of the current political setup in Scotland unfortunately has been soundly rejected by the electorate in England .

    Any and all thoughts of changing Westmonster from within is simply a waste of energy a pointless exercise.

    Hundreds of thousands of people looking for direction just now that’s where leadership shows it’s value, I hope to god people with influence in the SNP have some, any kind of plan to stop the inevitable hemorrhaging of support ,

    Every comment on Indy supporting websites is being scrutinised for a reaction to the Tory governments recent dismissal of the request by Nicola Sturgeon for a second referendum, most of us can only guess what the other side are up to just now but they sure as hell know what the SNP and YES movement are up to , so a bit of latitude when thoughts of any criticism directed at people who are doing their best .
    Rant ends .

    • “Changing Westminster from within”

      No chance. They are stuck in the Middle Ages. At the end of PMQs yesterday a Tory MP stood up and raised a point of order. He complained that it was not fair on aethists like him who if they wanted a seat on the benches during PMQs they had to attend “prayers” beforehand to be allocated a pass or permission or something like that by the clerks to get a seat. What “prayers” involve God only knows but this illustrates that they don’t do change. Unbelievable in this day they have such archaic practices.

      Obviously if less people had voted in Tory MPs it would not be such a problem for him. Scotland did its best to help him out.

  6. Absolutely spot on post by WGD.

    The veil has been lifted and only the blind cannot see the ugly face of British nationalism.

    Labour, Lib Dems and Tories say democracy is only for England.

    The only way to have a decent modern democratic state in Scotland is to vote for independence. That is now crystal clear. Do not accept anything else and do not accept the Britnat lies – particularly the Labour Party.

    At least with the Tories you always know they are nasty lying reprobates but Labour and Lib Dems are total frauds. They say nice words to con the gullible but they are just the same as the Tories – Britnats whose loyalty is to London. Britnats whose goal in life is to get a cosy seat in the House of Lords. There are now more Scots lords from Labour in the House of Lords than they have politicians in Scotland who have been elected and that includes all those time serving low flying jimmies elected on the regional list in the Scottish parliament.

    Socialist Labour Lords now there’s a contradiction in terms.

  7. Pingback: The twin cheek of the twin cheeks | speymouth

  8. I am really fed up with this once in a generation/lifetime quote from the opposition about our choice for another referendum, I take a once in a generation/lifetime chance every time I buy a lottery ticket.

  9. Bravo, well said..
    Your insertion of “British” does indeed make better sense of that comment to many in these isles, and not just in Scotland…

    Had previously observed on rising media propaganda particularly on BBC output (classic diversion after the lie to prevent it being exposed), so her “divisive nationalism” line in front of a receptive Neil and portraying SNP as promoting independence because “…nobody is paying attention to their record, which is frankly appalling” was no great surprise, straight from the “Rise/Repeat” list.. But the “beating” and Catalonia line was horrendously misjudged.
    As much as this may reinforce the establishment propaganda line to an England audience, to Scotland it only exposes the abject and willing ignorance of Labour MPs to understand what actually makes Scotland tick and make themselves relevant.
    The irony for Lisa Nandy in chasing Labour leadership, is that she has doubtless alienated thousands of Scots Labour members in a response to how she might rebuild support, something even Reichardt Lennusafiver hasn’t managed with both left feet on such a devastating scale…

    James Kelly’s poll could not have been in the works at a more prescient time….

  10. The Union: To be shat on by the tories and shoveled up by labour.

    Well….bollocks to that.

    We should, as old Alasdair Grey suggested and work as if we live in the early days of a better nation. But more importantly, we should also live as if we are in the days of a better nation. No more support for British parties. No more support for the British media. Lets show them each and every day, that we do not need, nor have ever needed a convention to show that the Scots have always been international in outlook and inclusive. That the only regressive and divisive nationalism, is the one being practiced by the British. The British establishment. The British media. And the so called British parliament.

    Remember also: That the Scottish cringe? – It’s a British thing. That inferiority is theirs and theirs alone.

    The party of Keir Hardie is dead. The party of home rule is dead and its never coming back. Ian Murray is the last labour MP in Scotland. Let London Labour play are being the Noble Loser and form little prayer circles of solidarity and sing kumbaya. Scotland needs to start working to rid itself of Britain, the Union and that farce of a tory talking shop that dares call itself a Parliament. The only Parliament I respect is the one in Holyrood. The only PM i recognise is the FM. We occasionally consent to send some people to some old building by the Thames…you know the one, that Building were they can’t afford a bong for brexit. They don’t seem to want to listen to what we have to say.
    Fine. Then lets stop pretending and end this silly farce of a union. Consign it to the dustbin of history. A fate that is not only long overdue, but richly deserved.

  11. She is no friend of the working people in England either, she is a Labour politician with Tory policies.

    The continuance of comparing Catalonia with Scotland is outrageous , Catalonia is a county and Scotland is a country , there’s a big difference .
    Catalonia is part of Spain and Spanish law says a county or area within Spain does not have the right to become independent .
    Spain were implementing adherence to Spanish laws , they did it in a terrible way ,violent beyond anything the modern world expects, I’m sad that the rest of Europe did very little to help Catalonia but I’m hopeful that they will achieve their aim with a different plan , sometimes you have no alternative but to fight for your freedom and that means violence .

    Scotland is a country , the union was agreed a very long time ago but that does not change the fact that Scotland joined in a union and did not become part of England so it can leave this union any time it wants to.
    The problem we have at the moment is that we have the evidence that a majority want Scottish independence in terms of seats in Westminster and in the Scottish Parliament but Westminster is now arguing that we also need a majority of voters to vote in favour of Scottish independence and we do not have that , YET.
    I’m sure that once we do have a majority of voters voting for Scottish independence Westminster will say we require a majority of the population which in effect will mean that people who do not vote at all are counted as being against Scottish independence.

    Sooner or later I think we will have to do what Craig Murray mentioned on his website.
    We will have to take the lead and declare Scottish independence .
    When Malta declared independence in 1964 Westminster came up with all the same arguments we are seeing here in Scotland said 70% of Maltese would have to vote in favour of independence for Westminster to agree with it.
    As it was it was 54% in favour and Malta declared independence without Westminster’s agreement.
    Westminster then withdrew financial help right away as well as other business and imposed sanctions that harmed Malta.
    Malta then offered negotiation offering Westminster a ten year lease on harbour facilities for the British navy and agreed to have the queen as head of state in exchange for friendly cooperation during the initial independence years.
    The United Nations and nearby Italy were prominent throughout.
    Scotland can expect all the horrible treatment that Westminster gave to Malta over many years .
    During independence protests fifty years or so before independence British soldiers opened fire on protesters in Malta, where have we heard that before.

  12. This is going to be the biggest hurdle the ever going to have to get its history.we need to get out of this discredited on earth do we get to a situation like this when another country dictates what we are entitled to do.and from an Englishman at is very hurting to see how Scotland is getting treated and when you see us in this situation.the very sad thing about this is Scotland getting treated like this very many Scottish people do not give a toss.and just let it go on.just take the tory mps that kept there seats in Scotland in December.the electorate who voted for them know very well that the Tory they helped win the seat know that they are not going to stand up for Scotland.what does that tell you.we have to get independence.i truly believe we will be a very prosperous country in the years to come lets get someway out of this discredited union now.

  13. The media lack of criticism of comments like Nandy’s has allowed Scotland’s opponents ( foreign and domestic ) to keep re-iterating lies , damned lies and Gers figures for years now .

    It is an accepted ‘fact’ on BBC/ITN news broadcasts that Scotland’s services are ”appalling” ( as Nandy claimed – with no facts presented as evidence ) ;

    it is Gospel that the Scottish people were 100% aware during the 2014 referendum that we were likely to be dragged out of the EU as this was repeated hourly on the BBC World Service ;

    it was written in stone that the 2014 referendum was a ”once in a Methuselah’s lifetime ( 969 years )” opportunity for the Scottish people to vote on independence – and we ALL KNEW !

    it is an uncontested fact that divisive Scottish nationalists were responsible for the violence in Catalonia by attacking the peace-loving Spanish Police as they endeavoured to help old ladies and the disabled to access the polling stations ;

    it has yet to be confirmed by Laura Kuenssberg ( BBC mentor-in-chief ) but it is thought that the wildfires in Australia may have been a result of SNP activists deliberately attempting to draw the world’s attention away from the appalling SNP results at the recent GE when they were unable to unseat the leading Scottish politician , Ian Murray , as he triumphantly lead the amazing Unionist fightback against Nicola Sturgeon’s disheartened band of separatists .

    More to follow from our Scottish correspondents in Conservative Party HQ , or as it is more widely known , the BBC newsroom !

  14. Ms Nandy put herself forward for leadership of a party and presumably the populations of these islands. Think about that for a second. A leader… representing what? Who? A person who believes they’re fit to perform a duty of care for every population, every culture, every demographic, EVERY PERSON without fear or favour. (BUT NOT YOU EEEEEVIL SPLITIST JOCKOS obviously.)

    Dear Lord! Just when you think you’ve seen the depths party politics can sink to? There’s always another face out there effectively saying ‘hold my pint’. Also? I am so utterly sick of isms and ists. Of being pigeonholed by thoughtless, crass, metrocentric policy gonks and meeja punditry who think they know about a people because of the bullshit they feed each other.

    So they wring their hands. They weep and wonder. They play pretend on why trust in the political class, the media and their respective institutions has fallen off a cliff.


  15. When you don’t really believe in what you are selling but want to dress it up as something acceptable to a core demographic, in other words try to present socialism as grimly authorritarian and nationalistic then you end up with something as incoherent and contradictory as Nandy.

    Labour has been doing this since Blair and his PR advisers. Many Labour voters left when they recognised the snake oil they were asked to swallow but enough stayed, believing the illusion or gladly accepting the slick new cover for their own lack of belief in Labour values any more.

    Many of them went on voting because essentially they thought they recognised themselves in Blair – what he called the “aspirational” – who were thus encouraged to see themselves as different from the “underclass”. It was pure PR sophistry which helped to drive a wedge through Labour’s natural voting base. We are seeing the results of that deliberate divisiveness in England today.

    Nandy is simply trying to appeal to her own consituents with this portrayal of Scottish nationalism as vile and divisive while also comically painting their Brexit fervour and dsilike of immigration as “internationalism”. She is a typical Labour charlatan, serving up poisonous weeds as a bouquet of roses to hide her own naked opportunism. But what is even more sickening are those in the so-called progressive left in the MSM in the UK who see fit to endorse her point of view. They are beyond contempt.

    How quickly England and the “progressive left ” have abandoned any pretence of democratic principles. Johnson and Cummings must be laughing. Sometimes you waken up and think you have gone through a wormhole into another dimension where our ideas of logic don’t work any more.

    • ” the progressive left have abandoned any pretence of democratic principles”

      Well the best (if you can call it that) example I can think of was Denis Healey the old Labour chancellor saying if the Scots are stupid enough to keep voting for us to spend their oil revenues then it would be undemocratic and churlish not to carry out their wishes.

      So they have followed our democratic wishes when it suited them.

      Maybe not the exact words he used but pretty close and spot on with the basic point he made – well after he retired of course.

      • Didn’t know Healey had actually said that. Cynical old bugger. But it is a problem of democracy that for many career politicians, constant compromises with their own consciences to please this or that demographic seems to produce contempt for the electorate and inevitable cynicism.

        Perhaps it’s exactly that – being a ‘career politician’. Might be an idea to limit how many times someone can stand for election? But then at the same time value is placed on experience by the electorate and parties themselves. Democracy is not perfect – a large subject – made worse, in my opinion, by the size of the polity. The old principle applies perhaps , that the closer to their voters a government is, the better. Distance breeds cynicism.

  16. No wonder no one votes for them. Arrogant and ignorant. Her mother was the daughter of a Libdem peer. Another brought up in privilege who does not have a clue. Imagine Labour having a Sir for leader. What planet are they on. The disconnect with people. If Corbyn cared about anyone he would have stood down. No principles.


    They have blown the world to bits. Impoverished the world. Illegal attacks on the Middle East have caused the worst migrant crisis in Europe since the 11WW. Displaced and killed millions.

    They destroyed the world banking system causing misery for people. £Billions/Trillions were lost.

    They are trying to imposed Brexit on the world. To ruin the world economy. The UK economy is now tanking. 3% behind the EU. Lost £Billions. Taking people for fools.

    They support austerity. Killing off people and causing misery. Leaving people in poverty. NHS/Education and welfare underfunded and cut. £Billions wasted on HS2, Hinkley Point and Trident. It is just appalling.

    The SNP have to mitigate the appalling Westminster unionist social, economic and foreign policies. Standing up for Scotland. Any Westminster unionist leader who does not support Scottish Independence does not last very long. They will realise very soon. Self preservation.

    Neil is a disgrace. Thatcher henchman. The reports he made about Scotland. In the 1980’s condemning the people of Scotland as lazy, drunken and useless.

    Thatcher was secretly and illegally taking Scottish resources and revenues to fund London S/E. Increasing unemployment. Leaving Scotland in poverty and lying about it. Imposing the illegal Barnett Formula. What a disgrace. They said separate accounts could not be produced. Devolution has opened up the accounts to closer scrutiny. Showing the duplicity.

  17. The BBC lead journalists have been censored by their own authorities for biased tweets. Lead or leave. No wonder no one watches the BBC. Losing viewers faster than a sieve loses water.

  18. State controlled media – sounds like North Korea.

    Obsession by the media about the ruling family – sounds like North Korea.

    The media promotes having Weapons of mass destruction – sounds like North Korea.

    A fake democracy – sounds like North Korea.

    Some of the population feel like they are in a prison – sounds like North Korea.

    Lies are truth and truth is lies – sounds like North Korea.

    Nope just the UK.

  19. Had never heard of Nandy until a couple of days ago. Which gap in the floorboards did she crawl out of! Creepy, sneaky, nasty, narrow nationalist doing British far right nationalists a big fat favour. Spades of lies, project fear two only this time it’s nasty time.

    These people are obsessed with little bitty ‘up there’ Scotland, we could be forgiven for guessing why that might be eh.

    Talking of the pretendy lefty Britnat establishment nasty little rag the Graun, I was tidying a few folders out when I spotted an old Graun article I’d kept, not sure why. It’s by M. Kettle, written in 2010. “Stop hoping for the worst, give Duncan Smith a chance’. Yep, it’s about IDS reforms of ‘welfare’. It basically supports the whole nasty upheaval that IDS planned for the benefits system.

    Kettle basically condones cutting benefits to the poorest to get them into work. “Beveridge was aiming to build a jerusalem. Duncan Smith is trying to fix Jerusalem’s broken pipes’. He goes on, ” The welfare plans he announced yesterday may not be as exciting as those of Beveridge but their aims are profound”.

    I wonder if Kettle still believes the idea was to fix the pipes, given the dreadful cruel, immoral Universal Credit, so called, which had led to so many deaths of people desperately in need of just minimal state support, to have the bare minimum to live.

    To deny your own people basic needs, the most basic that the Human Rights Act endorses for everyone, is just absolutely criminal. Yet Kettle defended this terrible so called ‘reform’.

    No wonder I ditched the pretendy lefty Graun years ago, as have many others I know.

    Great article again Paul, thanks.

    • Likewise for me about Labour, The Graun and Kettle in particular. A party, a paper and a propagandist so up themselves in self-denial they have lost all touch with reality. So many fine principles that magically seem to fall apart when English Establishment supremacy over Scotland comes under challenge. Jakey Rowling seems to suffer from the same self-awareness bypass, preferring to retreat to the comfort blanket of unjustified self-righteousness rather than confront a (for them) bitter reality that they have been displaced by another party which does actually practice what it preaches about social solidarity and genuine internationalism, even in the face of a degree of home-based populist isolationism. The isolationism that Labour has consistently failed to address, and for which cowardice has paid the inevitable electoral price.

      We should keep a stack of examples of anglosplaining like Nandy’s, nursing our contempt for them to keep it warm, ready to be deployed in IndyRef2 if they dare to tell us again how “equal” and “respected” we are. No wonder the lot of them are increasingly desperate to keep us from making that choice. A choice that will ultimately be as impossible to prevent as the tide coming in.

  20. Labour politicians. What are they like eh? Just when you think it’s all gone quiet when up pops another nonentity to remind us how out of touch they are. No life outside the WM bubble. Aye so reliable. Won’t be long before the next one pops up to say something really stupid. 🙂

  21. The BBC viewing figures for political coverage are now so low they do not publish them. Young people no longer watch the BBC but go to other sources. Streaming and the internet, The rise of Netflix and catch up sources.

    The younger and more savvy people are informed through the internet. A variety of sources. Sharing information. Blogs etc.

    The health queues will get longer. The economy is tanking because of Brexit. Essential workers leaving. The Tories were warned that would happen but did not care. Now supported by other unionists. Following EU rules until December and beyond,

    It was only closer ties with Europe that improved the UK economy after the disaster of Thatcher, especially in Scotland. That is why the Tories got rid of her. Deja Vu. Some people never learn.

    The Thatcher years. Riots and civil unrest. Civil war with the miners. The Poll tax. High unemployment. 15% in Scotland. Interest rates at 17%. Banking deregulation. Led to the financial worldwide. crash. The bankers fund the Tory Party.

    The majority of people wanted to remain in the EU. How much more damage will have to be inflicted on some other people before they realise.

    Support for the SNP and Independence rising. Devolution 2000 The SNP Gov standing up for Scotland. Against the Westminster unionist Gov total ignorant and arrogant intransigence makes a difference.

    The Scottish Gov having to mitigate against the Westminster unionist failed incomprehensible policies. Until another Indy Ref and Independence is achieved.

    Devolution has made Scotland better off. So will Independence. If Scotland is better off so is the rest of Britain. Scotland is going it’s own way in any case to a better future. All the unionists will get voted out. There will be no opposition to Independence.

  22. This is just getting ridiculous. Margareth Thatcher showed more understanding of Scotland than the present batch of Labour politicians. And to think that this was once the party of the home rule. Have they really learnt nothing from the history of Ireland?

  23. Henry the V111 never ruled Scotland then or now, neither does Westminster,
    I have yet to find the consent of the population of Scotland agreeing to join the treaty of the union in 1707.
    In fact I believe from history that they protested and rioted against it.and were excluded from having a say by the actual persons whom signed that treaty. S o where does that leave the sovereign population of Scotland. Independent of the treaty of the union?
    We have enough written history and documented evidence to make the claim that we the Scottish population and people of Scotland have maintained our sovereignty from England.
    Why do you suppose that England agreed that that we have the right to choose who governs us in July 2018. And yet does not gift that significance to any other colonies they have ruled.
    Self determination may be backed up in the EU or UN, but we had that right even before the EU existed. So are we a independent sovereign nation of people?
    When the Scotland act was passed by Westminster,s England it broke the treaty of the union anyway as it was making one of the two kingdoms whom signed the treaty in-surbordinant. It deminished Scotland laws, which were agreed Scotland should maintain in the treaty of the union,
    David Cameron also broke the treaty of the union in 2011 when he passed into Westminster that the religion of the monarchy can be other than was stated in the treaty of the union in 1707 and that they can marry outside the religion stated in the treaty of the union.
    The point I am making is how sound a reality is England’s claim that we ( the sovereign people and population of Scotland) are still held or bound to the treaty of the union of 1707,
    England may not have had a written constitution then or now, and they can change the goal posts in England to whatever they want, whenever they want, as long as it applies to England only, However it cannot alter a treaty between two countries without the consent of the only other signature of that international treaty, and Scotland signed under Scots law which it maintained.
    A challenge in law can be made regarding the legalities of the treaty of the union on many levels and in many areas, and I question wether that international treaty between Scotland and England in 1707 even exists today.
    Or has England’s Westminster been faking it for a long time.

    • A lot of deep thinking there. The fact that Westminster has not succeeded in it’s attempts to quiet the voice of Scotland must be frustrating them no end.

      They are now seeking to change the way each nation sees itself by placing ‘sovereignty’ of Westminster above all which is extremely worrying. I do hope that this is going to be challenged robustly, for all our sakes.

  24. I was just thinking about Nandy’s “idea” about setting up an International Commission which would be “led by Scots”. I wonder what Scots she had in mind? Gordon Brown, Jim Murphy et al? The Better Together losers?

  25. RIP Derek Fowlds, fondly remembered as Bernard in Yes Minister.

    “Bernard, when you move on from here,
    where do you plan to go?”

    “Well, I er I I don’t know.”

    “- Like to be in charge of defence procurement?”

    “- Oh, gosh.”

    ” – In Sunderland or Berwick or Lossiemouth?”

    ” – Is that a place?”

    ” – Lossiemouth? What’d you think it was?”

    “- A dog food.”

    ” If the Employment Secretary has his way,(moving 300,000 armed forces personnel, and support to the ‘North’)
    you may get a diet of Lossiemouth.”

    Ignorance of anything Scottish even in 1986.

    • Not ignorance but arrogance and constantly using Scots, or anyone NOT ‘British’, as a butt of jokes. Some may think it’s ‘funny’ but it gets to the heart of the unthinking attitudes.

  26. I was just thinking again, lol, about some of the Labour leader wannabes “fascination” with Scotland and wonder if it’s more about fear. Fear that when people in the North of England become totally scunnered with the Tories / Westminster they won’t return to the Labour fold but will want to break away from the rest of England. May in fact want to join an Independent Scotland.


    It’s also interesting to see that the BritNats posting on another site are upping the ante. Scrambling over each other to get a word in. A clear sign that their incontinence pads are needing changed. The physical reaction to emotional alarm.

      • Dam you never said it was more SNP baaad disguised as Labour useless.

        You know when an oracle keeps telling you the same message perhaps the message will come true or alternatively the oracle has been cursed and is destined to deliver the same message forever more. Either way it gets bloody boring.

  27. I wonder if it would be worthwhile pointing out to those who think that we are bound utterly and forever by the Treaty of Union of 1707 that there was no universal suffrage then, so the Scottish people did not give their consent? It can hardly be portrayed as being democratic consent and evidence of the time points to dismay and rioting exhibited by the common people, denied any part in the decision. ‘ Why am I so sad on my wedding day?’ Nowadays we allow married couples to change their minds and dissolve their union.

    • It certainly is and there are millions all over the UK who cannot see the basic injustice and sadly there are millions more who can see the injustice but don’t care enough to raise their voices. A family of nations – a sad sad joke. Not the type of family that I want to be part of.

  28. The Labour Party in Scotland have someone as leader who is very very unlikely to ever see a split in the Labour Party in Scotland .
    He had dumbed it down greatly.

    The Labour Party DONT mind that they only have one MP in Scotland that is not their worry their biggest fear is the Labour Party in Scotland splitting into two with a one group breaking away to support Scottish independence .

    A breakaway independence Labour Party in Scotland would overnight take with them the support of all the YES supporting labour voters and good many soft NO supporters which would immediately give Scottish independence an overnight majority .

    People discount Leonard but he will never ever ever allow a breakaway group to build and that is his main job keeping Labour voters away from Scottish independence as top priority with promises he cannot keep and over which he has zero control , federalism , international socialism , big union organisation

    • Ripcord Lanyard is as much a hostage to fortune as Dugdale was. As was Murphy and Lamont before him. Political weather vanes, each and every one. They go dark because they’re waiting to see which way the wind is blowing. Rickshaw Lamplighter is no different in this regard.

      Keep labour voters away from independence? Where did those all those extra SNP voters come from that saw Labour reduced to a parody party in 4th place? They came from Labour. Rocket Limpet has no way of winning them back. His vote is slowly eroding not growing. So that plan is not working out so well. His promises about federalism are only possible if his previous London Paymaster: Corbyn, backed it. And he didn’t. The new set won’t either.

      No. I suspect that Ramjet Lightshade is waiting to see who’s boss and then decide if he should bail out or not. There is going to be a schism in the labour party in Scotland. They really aren’t in control of events anymore. Haven’t been for some time.

  29. The British nationalist parties, mostly facilitated in their views of the future are truly frightening me. I see that they are repeating the same mistakes of the 1930s.
    Mark my words the facility bully boys have taken over the British parties and they have a new target to blame for all the ills facing the British state. The yes supporters will be identified and tracked by the uk govt.

    Re education centres funded by the uk govt, to “help us understand the benefits of the Union” The Holyrood parliament will be neutered by supplemental legislation out of Westminster.

    We need to get out now or face a bleak future .Democracy is dead and the British are past masters in subversion and manipulation of truth.

  30. In Scotland co habitees have to put in a claim within a year and fight through the Courts. It can cost £thousands to fight for their rights. It can affect women the most as main carers, on separation. Married people have rights under the Law. Supposedly 50/50.

    Co habitee women are supposed to get 1/3. Not guaranteed and sometimes it does not work out. A miscarriage of justice. That should be put right. The Police can help the abuser. Lock the abused woman out of the house. .

  31. I have always loved history and archaeology as a regular past time, due to this I often do research into history that is never isolated information, nothing in history stands on its own, for instance, if you learn that there was a battle locally in your area, then you have to pose the question whom were the outside invaders?, where did they come from? What political motives caused them to invade? Money? starvation?disruption? employment? disasters? or greed to name but a few reasons, what was the outcome of the battle?how did it affect the local population? what does factual history say about it? and what did propaganda report about it?
    I used to read many articles on many Scottish sites that started questioning how Britain evolved as a supposed United Kingdom, and many many others on these sites had the great foresight to dissect the before, intermediate, and after effects of the treaty of the union, including the actual facts and names of those whom signed the treaty AND those that did not.
    The propaganda around the treaty of the union, before, during and afterwards was very similar in many ways to the misleading information that happened to Scotland and its people in 2014, what you are led to believe is not accurate as information goes.
    The people, and population of Scotland were not included in the treaty of the union. And I for one would love to see England’s Westminster try prove otherwise, that Scotland’s people were asked or consented to join the treaty of the union.
    Imagine this scenario, I told Mr Smith, that you and your family were going to be the next tenant of the flat he rented out, and being as I owned part of the building I expected to financially benefit also. I did not refer to you or your family Pacifically, just a vague reference,
    So on hearsay Mr Smith sends you and your family bills for rent, includes you and your families names on amenities bills, and names you to the council for council tax bills with the intent to gain financially,
    Except you and your family had never intended to move into his flat, and as you or your family had never signed any such declaration that you were going to enter into any such contract with Mr Smith or myself. Are you legally liable for what someone else claimed on your behalf for you and your family in your names.
    The answer legally is No.
    The person whom made the claim may( myself in this scenario) be imprisoned for making a false claim or statement on you and your families behalf to extract financial gain from you, and secondly Mr Smith would be considered an accomplish in trying to extract monetary gain for himself from you and your family.
    This is how the 1707 treaty of the union was.
    You or no one in your family agreed to the treaty of the union at that time or now in the present.
    Now there is a legal twist to this tale, Suppose you and your family were threatened with violence to abide by this false contract, where does that fit into any law in Scotland or England or Britain for that matter?
    You were not, and are not in any way, in the Treaty of the Union. The sovereignty of the people of Scotland is still retained legally, A claim made by by a select few for monetary gain in 1707 that exempted your name, or permission for a future contract between your country and theirs followed by threats does not make a legally binding contract on the people of Scotland.
    And that is why Westminster is now panicking, what if the Scottish people realise that England never held them. What if Scottish people realise that the only people legally bound to England are the actual names on the treaty of the union, what if the Scottish people realise that they owe no financial recompense to England if they decide to chose to govern themselves.
    The thistle has thorns and will be impossible to cling to for much longer.

    • Hello , good points you make , if there are any records of what was said by who
      they are ensconced firmly in the vaults of Westminster , maybe even destroyed.

      The thing is so much time has passed , what is important right now , looking to the future , is that Scotland and England should make every effort to have an amicable separation so that plans are made agreements reached about how we divide assets and responsibilities .

      England has control of so much of Scotland and Scotland has control of so little of England
      that there is no doubt who’s situation will be more difficult if we separate without an agreement.

      UK could leave the EU without a deal because there are no UK government assets in EU countries that the EU can say they are going to keep for themselves .
      The British museums and Art galleries are crammed full of precious things stolen from dozens of countries around the world and England refuse to return them.
      Scotland will become another country on that list .

      So I understand why SNP are making every effort possible to separate with the agreement of England’s Westminster .

  32. It would be fine and such a nice idea that Westminster would play fair or not try to pull a fast one on Scotland and its people, I totally agree this is the way most Scots people are by nature, we are trusting and friendly in the majority, it would be nice to think that Teresa May would have recognised the request for a s30 or that Boris Jonson would have, it would be nice to think that the world is how we want it to be, and I am not saying let’s go of on a rocket in the wrong direction, or pull the fuse before we’re ready,
    The legalities of the treaty of the union may seem so long ago that for some it should not apply to our situation today, and yet, is it not the case that we are still being held by England’s Westminster to a 1707 international treaty today?
    What happened to Scotland in 1707 legally, is what is supposedly tying us now to England, It matters very much even today to untangle the facts from fiction, and if all the avenues of reality are explored it causes nobody any harm, It is very important to question facts and discard fiction, However if the snp cannot achieve independence for us, then it is time for the sovereign Scottish people to know what is legal, and what can be challenged.
    There are many legal directions we can take.
    If Westminster recognises, as it says it does, that the people of Scotland have the right to choose whom governs us, we the people have to choose that right.
    Westminster does not recognise that the Scottish government or the snp are sovereign, (as a matter fact at present they have decided that powers returning from the EU after Brexit, that should be held in our Scottish government, will be retained in Westminster). Our present Scottish government is not sovereign even although we voted for it under devolution, and the mandates the snp have, that we gave them is not recognised either, that is why the English politicians are able to keep shifting the goalposts. Plus England have no written constitution excepting the treaty of the union.
    On July 4th 2018 in Westminster, and in the previous Scotland Act, They did agree that the Scottish PEOPLE had the right to make a choice on whom governs us. This is why it is important to realise that we have always retained our sovereignty from a long time ago, before the treaty of the union and afterwards, Westminster treats the people of Scotland very different from its devolution government or its political parties.
    However if England was to close down holyrood we have the right as sovereign Scottish people to choose a new government for the people of Scotland. This is an excellent first step on our road to being independent.
    There is more than one way to achieve independence, as long as we follow the law, but these avenues are all open for discussion. And I welcome them.
    And I say that Westminster must have records of the international treaty of the union 1707, and whom signed it and who DID NOT sign. If we state that we the sovereign people of Scotland did not sign that treaty of the union nor chose the people that self elect themselves who claimed? To represent us, that did sign. That is up to Westminster to prove that all of the people and population of Scotland signed or voted on an agreement to join the treaty of the union in 1707.
    They cannot have their cake and eat it, we are separate and sovereignly independent from England, Westminster, the Scottish government, the snp and any civil service that is employed by any British government, ( hence our right to choose whom governs us) in Scotland, according to Westminster, the treaty of Arbroath, and our claim of right.
    The English government did not grasp and hold firm all of Scotland, it appears that it can only hold to account those that signed the treaty of the union, whose names I cannot remember at present. Legal law as a reset button appeals to myself more than begging to any Westminster politicians for a referendum, and in future it may be that the discussions we have held on the legalities of that said treaty are to become our only options

    • I’d not argue with your narrative and I’ve said for years that the argument around ” Independence ” in 2014 is the wrong one.
      We should have been discussing if we want to be bound by the Terms and Conditions of the Treaty of Union and how it is currently implemented ?
      It’s the Treaty arrangements that we should have been examining and deciding upon…… Nevertheless, we voted indirectly for the first time in 300 odd years to consent to be bound by it.
      So it could be argued that the People of Scotland have democratically agreed to the Treaty and in is current form ( how it is implemented).

      No one really discussed it or what it actually ment…. Had they done so we could have walked away in 2014 with at the very least a new TREATY one with a sunset or get out clause or Independence it’s self.
      I’m hoping that we are not going to make the same mistake again…
      Westminster certainly didn’t in the Brexit vote,they were very clear it was the Treaties with the EU they were ending.

      As to the Documents your interested in…. They are more than likely held in Windsor Castle and only vetted and approved people can view specified and approved bundles of those…. I understand historians have complained of these restrictions for years

  33. Any Westminster leader who does not support another IndyRef or Independence for Scotland does not last very long. They will soon cotton on self preservation. Every unionists politician will be voted out in Scotland. It is only because they rigged the electoral system in Scotland there are any there longer.

    The D’Hond’t lists. Letting 3rd losers in while first preference votes go in the Bill. A lot of losers manipulating the system. That will not save them. The demographics are changing.

    There is increasing support for the SNP and Independence. Some of the losers are going to change and let the winners in. The SNP and Independence is going win. Any opposition swept aside.

    There will be no opposition in Scotland to Independence in the EU. Any opposition politicians will be gone. They will soon change their tune. To find themselves out of the loop and out of the game. The corrupted electoral system It cannot be sustained or contained.

    On to a better future. If Scotland gets better off so do others. A more equal, progressive, cohesive and fair future. Scotland is going it’s own way in any case. Vast improvements and investments. A different place already because people are voting for it.

    The SNP Gov standing up for Scotland. Against the poor, sordid, corrupt opposition. Independence in the EU coming down the line, People just have to vote for it. Better times ahead.

  34. UK £1.8Trn debt, £8.7Trn assets.

    Scotland should be leaving with a nice wee nest egg. Help from ECB and other sources worldwide. Scotland has a 40million diasporas and many friends. The EU gave loans and help to German unification and eastern bloc countries achieving self determination and self governance.

    One reason for Devolution. The lack of democracy for Scotland in the UK Union compared to eastern bloc countries determination of their future, Supported by EU and International Law legislation and regulation. People voted for it.

    Scotland has a lot of worthwhile investment and achievement. A better future to decide. Improvements all the time. The SNP Gov standing up and supporting Scotland because people campaign and vote for it.

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