The light we shine for ourselves

So this is it then. This is the better, safer change they promised us in return for a no vote in 2014. This is that brighter future in a Britain that respects and loves Scotland. This is the equality, the partnership, the leading not leaving. Every one of us in Scotland who is weighed down by a UK passport is losing our European citizenship, despite the fact that Scotland voted to remain a part of the EU by a considerably larger margin than it voted to remain a part of the UK, despite the fact that a central plank of the no campaign’s pitch in 2014 was that Scotland could only remain a part of the EU by voting against independence. This is where we are now, on the dark end of a benighted island, ignored, marginalised, sidelined, treated with contempt and derision. Today there is mourning and anger. But there is more than grief and rage, lying beneath, like the glistening metal beneath the rust of a decaying British state, is a steely Scottish resolve that we will have our say, that we will have our day, that our light will shine.

This is the end of the Scottish Unionism of old, the comforting myth of partnership between Scotland and the rest of the UK dies today. Brexit’s acid burns away the fairy story of equality. This is the time of wakening up. This is where the pretending stops. The pretending that Scotland can be both British and European. That has been taken away by those who claim to defend and love the so-called union between Scotland and the rest of the UK. You can no longer realistically say that you want Scotland to be part of the EU and a part of the UK. It has to be one or the other. The UK will not be rejoining the EU any time soon. The quickest route back, the only realistic route back, the only route which is politically plausible, is the route of Scottish independence. It’s time to choose between a Scotland which determines its own path, or a Scotland whose path is decided for it by politicians in London who are only interested in Scotland as an extension of their own vanity and pride.

There are those who would try to confuse us with the deceit that Scottish independence can be equated with Brexit. It’s a lie. Scottish independence allows those of us who choose a Scottish citizenship to exercise it, it allows those Scots who identify as British to continue as British. Scottish independence would allow anyone who identifies as British in Scotland to retain their British citizenship, their British passport, their British identity. If any of those things were to be lost to British people in Scotland as a result of Scotland becoming independent it would be as a result of decisions made by Westminster, not by Holyrood. Brexit strips European citizenship from every Scot with British citizenship, whether we want it or not. It imposes and commands, it lessens and diminishes. It tells us who we have to be whether we recognise ourselves in the Brexit mirror or not. Brexit amputates Scotland from its European self and gives us a Great British shortbread tin in its place.

Today is the day that the real struggle begins. Today will mark the turning of the tide, when a consistent and growing majority of voters in Scotland support independence. The YouGov poll which was published this week showed a majority in support of independence, 51% in favour with 49% against. It was a historic poll from a polling company which has usually returned a lower support for independence than other pollsters. But lurking beyond the headline figure there was an even more significant result in that same YouGov poll. Of those under the age of 65, 58% support independence. Scotland is shifting from being a country where support for the UK is the norm to becoming one where support for independence is the norm. The future of UK rule in Scotland is time limited.

The Tories tell us no. They tell us that we can’t have another independence referendum, not now, not after the Holyrood elections, not ever. They claim that the result of the 2014 referendum must stand for all eternity irrespective of how circumstances change, or how the Tories have traduced the promises that they made in order to win that vote. Then having denied that there has been a material change in circumstances they tell us that they are perfectly entitled to make unilateral changes to the devolution settlement because Brexit is not a normal circumstance. The Tories are, as Nicola Sturgeon said in her speech today, goading Scotland not governing it.

Today we got a call from the First Minister for more persuading, more campaigning. The First Minister’s speech will have disappointed many of us who have already been persuading, campaigning and making the case for independence. We’ve not been sitting on our hands for the past six years. It will not have reassured those of us who want to know what happens when Boris Johnson says no in 2021 just as he’s said no already. This campaign needs to be proactive not reactive, it needs to take the fight to Westminster. Instead of fearing a Westminster legal challenge to a referendum without a Section 30 order, it needs to start legal action of its own. You don’t win independence with timidity.

Yet the reality is that those of us who were disappointed today are not the target audience of the First Minister’s speech. We’re not the ones who need to be persuaded. We’re not the ones who need to be courted. We’d crawl on our hands and knees over broken glass in order to vote yes. There is only one way in which to win Scotland’s independence, and that is to ensure that there is a solid majority for it, not to haggle over procedure and process. Winning independence is hard work.

But the danger for the SNP leadership is that in its understandable and entirely sensible focus on persuading soft no voters and undecideds that it alienates and discourages those who are already committed, those who are needed to do the persuading. On this day of endings, we needed a sense of a new beginning. Sadly we didn’t get that from Nicola Sturgeon’s speech. Her tactics may be right, but the tone was wrong. On a dark and fearful day we need fire to light a route out of the darkness, not managerialism.

But look beyond the disappointment of a speech that didn’t live up to expectations. There is hope. Scotland is changing, it is rediscovering itself and its place in the world. That new beginning does exist, it remains within reach. Every opinion poll showing a majority for yes confirms it. Scotland is on a path that leads to independence. It will be a rocky path. There will be reversals along the way, but there is only one destination. It’s a Scottish destination in the heart of Europe. There is a light for Scotland, it’s a light we shine for ourselves.


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677 thoughts on “The light we shine for ourselves

  1. I, for one, am very disappointed in Nicola Sturgeon’s speak today. Same old same old. As you say Paul, it was not really aimed at the yessers, but the undecided. But, there are only so many times you can march the troops to the top of the hill, then march them down again. She needed to give the yes side something clear, and decisive, and that just didn’t happen.

    Poor from the FM, very poor indeed. I see elsewhere, a lot of folk saying that the won’t vote SNP again. All very well, but who do we vote for then. I’m beginning to wonder if they will ever get some backbone and just stand up to the bullies of Westminster, who change the rules to suit themselves. We cannot go on playing by their rules.

      • That is true. But the time when you will likely make converts is during the heat of a campaign as that is when (undecided) people are listening and thinking. If they don’t have to make a decision they won’t. More than that, the uncommitted and open-minded won’t even think about it as they are busy getting on with their daily lives.

        Nicola’s tone of delivery was that of a scolding headmistress and the content of her speech was singularly lacking in inspiration. Telling people to be patient and keep on doing what they’ve been doing really is not good enough.

        We need a leader, not a manager.

        • NS/SNP never made “soft NOs” ask the hard questions about the Union.

          You are asking people to break centuries of programming (they have been fed a Pro-Union diet since they were born – it was so unseen it was like air and everyone around them was the same). You had to make the case for what they are moving to and why that social programming is a mirage and no longer suitable.

          That is painful and it is up to YES to make that case…not meekly wait for everyone to wake themselves.

      • If the NO’s haven’t realised what they’ve done by now they never will. It seems to me there is very little regret from them in regards to the situation they have left us in. It looks very much like NS is playing everyone. If she thinks that she can’t win a referendum she should say so and tell everyone to get on with their lives. The softly softly approach is not working, the NO’s don’t care.

    • Aye – I’ve had enough of freezing my backside off on stalls only to be laughed at behind doors by the upper echelons of the SNP. They’ve played us like fools – just like Labour before them. Might as well become an anarchist because I’m now disenfranchised.

    • The people of Scotland are sovereign, this is according to the Westminster Parliament last year when it was passed without a vote, and the Treaty of Union. The Scottish Government should ask the people to vote in a referendum, not for independence, but to repeal the Treaty of the Union of the Scottish and English Parliaments. This would be legal under international law. Throw the ball into Johnston’s court.

  2. Thank you Paul for bringing a glimmer of light to many of us today feeling totally disheartened. Your words as always hit the nail on the head.

  3. Sorry, most soft no voters will be too focused on real life to be up for persuading. You sometimes need to force the issue and force them to make a choice. Always asking for us to persuade people who are not going to engage is a hiding to nothing. Without a referendum date soft no will not listen. Why should they. It’s just another indy nut blabbing ‘The end is nigh’

    Remember – fortune favours the brave.

    What will we do when the tories start pouring money directly into ‘persuadable’ areas via the UK Government Office in Scotland (with it’s rumoured 3000 staff) and show that the ‘UK’ dividend is real, they don’t have to persuade many to get the 2021 election result to be a unionist majority. Just target the ‘persuadables’ with facebook dark money ads.

    We were at a crossroads and I believe we are now going down the wrong road. A chance has come and gone.

    Scunnered does not even come close.

  4. Got that horribly wrong Nicola – you were ill-advised. You have mis-read the mood of the support.

    The result was that I have never felt so down and despondent. We, Scottish independence supporters, were looking for ‘leadership and vision’ but these elements were sorely lacking in your presentation. Can I tell you that fortune favours the brave, and ‘my God’, Scotland needs to be brave and decisive if it want’s to achieve its goal.

    There is absolutely no room for the timidity, the platitudes and ‘correctness’ that you displayed today.

    Please! Please! Please! stand up to that bloated buffoon. That cretin Johnson. Knock him down!

    Alternatively, get out of the way, and let a more worthy and robust individual lead our rightful and just cause and deal the final deserving blow to our oppressors.

    • Totally agree. It is crystal clear to everyone but the blind that we live in an English dictatorship. We are told by a Tory party that never gets anywhere near winning an election in Scotland that our votes count for nothing. It is an affront to our basic human rights.

      If the SNP cannot do the business now then they need to move aside for new leadership or a new party. Just not good enough.

      Steady as you go is not a policy that will work. Nicola Sturgeon says we are winning the race. That is probably true but if you take part in a race that allows your opponent to keep pushing out of sight the finishing line then you will never get there.

  5. In an effort to extract anything but disappointment from this, the fact that no major announcements were made might be seen as lulling the enemy into a false sense of security, not giving them anything to get frothed up about. I sincerely hope that the SNP leadership realises that this is the British Empire we are up against here. Its methods may have toned down a bit since its use of ethnic cleansing and concentration camps, but it still believes it is superior and it will stop at nothing to preserve its right to deplete this country of its resources. No doubt Nicola’s words are all very democratic and ethically responsible, that she is right to say we should go high when they go low. But it seems to me that fighting the depths of Albion’s perfidy with moral outrage, reason and common compassion is something of a lost cause. The terms and conditions have now shifted.

    • “fighting the depths of Albion’s perfidy with moral outrage, reason and common compassion is something of a lost cause”.

      That made me remember what Dan Breen, one of the Irish leaders in the war of Independence said

      “The british had gone down in the mire to destroy us and our nation and down after them we had to go”

      • There is a realistic fear of a kind of Ulsterisation of Scotland. I know it is a horrible word, it is also a horrible prospect. The forces of British reaction could easily muster trouble makers enough eventually to provoke the reaction they need to justify taking special measures. Divide and rule.

  6. Surely the time focussing on soft NOs is now over? After three years, if they haven’t smelled the coffee, they never will. Today needed something powerful something assertive. All we got was the same old – it went down like a flat balloon. This was the day people needed action. A soft managerial approach was disappointing. Remember what happened to the Labour Party – you can only say “Leave it to us, we know best, it will be alright in the end!” so much before the people suss you out and just don’t bother anymore.

    Perhaps now (2020) is not the time for a referendum, but the people still need something to gve them hope. The SG should be assertive and creating merry hell for WM, making bloody nuisances of themselves, keeping indy at the top of the agenda. With mad Boris and Dominic running the show, failure to grasp the initiative, failure to up the stakes, failure to meet the challenge head on and Scottish independence will be nuetered before we realise it.

    If we let this slip, Boris and co will not hesitate (like we appear to be doing). He will go for the jugular. The warning signs are already there.

    • You never made them “smell the coffee”.

      The major SNP (and many YES) figures were continuing on as if things were “normal”. They were all in fighting for Remain…”the better Brexit outcome”. So if SNP were not full frontal fighting for Scotland’s sovereign right to chose in the best case in 300 years…why would you expect others to join.

      P.S. Normal = England gets its way, Scotland gets what England allows

  7. I don’t want to go through another 2014…glorious defeat and all that.
    I am not convinced that a majority of Scots would vote for independence,even after all that has happened.
    You can lead a horse….
    This is going to be a long haul while we wait for our fellow Scots to catch up with our way of thinking and the polls since Brexit have only demonstrated that fact.
    We might win if a referendum was held right now but then again,we might not and that I do not want to have to repeat the heartache of 2014.
    Not sure how long this process is going to take but we are definitely heading in the right direction.

    • Who joins a movement that is this stagnant? How many times did NS announce a INDY statement is coming over the last 2 years…and that was all there was?

      If YES aren’t confident of their case in the middle that Brexit horror show when Westminster had to show their true hand…then you don’t have a case.

      More worryingly you don’t appear to have factored in the risks Westminster’s own plans and changes will pose to the YES cause. Your slow and hopeful approach appears based on all the institutional structures YES had built up will stay as they are. Yet Westminster has already shown what is coming down the pipe and it’s brutal legislative Amanda they have assembled under the guise of Brexit. They have consistently made noises that they are planning to sweep way all the tools YES would need for INDY…and they have assembled the powers to do it.

      What then?

    • The problem really is that time like this won’t repeat itself any time soon. There is Brexit which really shattered a big number of soft unionists too, there are complete political non-entities leading the unionist parties in Scotland, there is Boris ‘Scots are a verminous race’ Johnson as a UK PM. Labour and LibDems are in total disarray in both Scotland and England.
      Who’d be leading unionist campaign if there were a referendum in May or October? They’d be wheeling back Broon and Ruth, but they are both yesterday’s people.Every present high-ranking Tory or Labour figure would do them more harm than good. Sure – there’s BBC, but how much people trust BBC nowadays?
      Labour or Tories will come with some smooth operator eventually and the opportunity will have been lost.
      As far as Yes/No figures are concerned – 60% of under 65s are yessers, nearly two thirds of under 50’s are yessers. And can you really make this generation of pensioners (the last unionist generation in Scotland) change their minds if they are stuck in their own ways?

  8. I too think this was well said and a good change from the mounting, hysterical braying we have had to put up with elsewhere. Also’ get back to your honeymoon / holiday.

  9. The first time that I have ever been unhappy with your writings, but you all need to get together under one banner and stop this infighting now or we will loose.

    It’s far too important a cause to start all this crap.

    You are going to loose readership, because you are going to split the vote.

    A sad day indeed in more ways that one!

  10. If you thought “once in a generation” was the shite sound bite that would not die. YES will rue the day NS inferred a referendum was illegal.

    Not only as she given Westminster a cudgel to bet YES with 24/7 – she has undermined ever future YES leader with that one turn of phrase.

    There will be a day when ‘illegal referendum’ will be played on loop in every Unionist press outlet and by every Unionist political until you are physically nauseated and they they will do it again.

  11. I have posted in the past that time will tell whether we are being led by Modern day Robert the Bruces or a bunch of Prince Charlie’s that are not so bonnie. It’s looking like the not so bonnie Charlie’s.

    Was going to go through to Edinburgh this afternoon for the gathering at Holyrood – not now.

    A dreadful speech.

    WGD should be doing the speeches for the SNP.

    I am not an SNP member but my SNP mug will be going the same way as the Wings mug I had. No more contributions to SNP from me.

    I’ll be writing to my new SNP MP expressing my displeasure.

    • Cubby. I say this with not one bit of malice intended.we have to stick together.keep fighting for what we want and deserve.we must not loose heart.we all know things are not going to be handed to us on a plate.you surely are not telling us its time to throw in the towel and let Westminster and Scottish unionists.win the day.and to let them continue ruling over us.surely not.lets defeat this discredited Westminster.and keep fighting the fight for our independence.it is not going to be easy.but we will prevail.

      • Joe, read my post again. I do not say I am throwing in the towel – never have and never will. It’s a plea for better leadership. My email to my MP has gone – awaiting reply. I will still vote for independence and I will still go on the marches but I will review any funds provided.

        It’s long overdue the SNP started upping the ante and stop accepting all the crap from the Britnats. If they are lying to your face tell them they are lying.

        • Hello again Cubby.
          Totally agree with what you say.there is so many things the SNP.could do.2.examples out of many that one could say.and do.when anyone of them is getting interviewed.they should be kicking back at anything that is wrong and lies.about the SNP.and say about the good the SNP.have done.since getting into power at what any interviewer are saying about the.SNP.but no many a time they just do not fight their corner.and here is the other one of many that really gets me down. they should be suing.the likes of the gutter press daily express.and mail.etc.for what they get away with what they say about the SNP.is totally out of order.but again not a word of protest from.the SNP.it would not stop it.but goodness me.it would curtail them more so what they print.if the SNP. won a case against these tabloids.there is to many things to mention that they could do that would help our cause to gain our independence.lets get out of this discredited union.the quicker the better.

          • Suing the gutter press? Where will they find the money to do that …. on a daily basis? As people mump and moan about what they reckon the SNP should do / be doing now many of the complainers would never dream of putting their hand in their pocket and donating a penny to them.

            And if folks don’t want to donate to the SNP they could crowdfund to take the press to court. A site like Wings would be ideal for successfully doing that, imo.

          • Joe, I frequently get enraged as SNP representatives fail to refute or bite back at lies by media interviewers and opposition spokespeople. It is obvious to me that none of them read Professor Robertson or Craig Murray. If they did they would have answers. I find myself shouting at the TV as another SNP interviewee is flummoxed by unionist lies and misrepresentations. The prof and Craig should be required reading for all SNP M.P.’s and MSP’S

        • An example was J.Cherry with Skynews tonight. That’s exactly what I meant. Petra that doesn’t need any funds to do. It’s courage and confidence.

          • Do you really think that the occasional comment from people like Joanna Cherry is going to put a dent in the challenges that we face with the media? Reliant on them broadcasting what she and Nicola Sturgeon, for that matter (without the usual editing) have to say? The SNP and independence movement are being disparaged on a daily basis and lies flow like Niagra Falls. We need to fund someone to put a stop to this now, not rely on our enemies throwing us the odd bread crumb now and again, imo.

  12. Rest assured every comment deriding Nicola Sturgeon on every Independence supporting site is being greeted with loud cheering by the folk whos job it is to gauge and measure opinion of the Independence movement , this will be used to chart the next move by the Unionists .
    Dont Help Them !. – by all means grump & groan but in private a united front is whats needed now.

    • They’re already on it in a local Tory group near me. They were bragging in a local café about their SIU chum who has been trawling social media since right after Nicola’s speech and they were even high-fiving in front of everybody that the self-fulfilling prophecy they predicted about the yes movement would help them bring ‘Nicola Sturgeon down’. So they had their mobiles out and had their photos of yessers twitter and facebook posts and were passing them ‘up the line’. They didn’t care who heard them. One of them said ‘This is the breakthrough’.

      So make of that what you will. It’s really depressing that it’s made so easy for them.

      But hey ho, onwards and upwards.

      • The SIU and the Britnats folly is that the Yes movement will never be about one person no matter how much the Britnat media try to personalise it.

    • Why…so YES can still pretend it isn’t where it is?….Trapped in a Brexit nightmare

      Sadly, the reality is NS not only led YES down a dead end she effectively kept YES in line while Westminster crafted a brutal new legislative toolbox in the guise of Brexit.

      • So what, in your opinion, should she have done? What is the detailed alternate better plan that would’ve been highly likely to lead to independence?

  13. Just wondering how Robert the Bruce felt, and more to the point his followers, when he faced, to say the very least, multiple challenges to free Scotland? Faced opposition within his own ranks to the tactics that he was using. Witnessed his comrades being slaughtered in front of him. His fight dragged on for decades but he, and his supporters, never gave up and they were ultimately victorious. Thankfully the way forward, in this day and age, doesn’t include bloodshed, as we all sit at our keyboards in the safety of our own homes. Are we going to give up now? Really give up now because Nicola Sturgeon didn’t announce the Indyref2 date earlier today? I don’t think so. We carry on more determined than ever to convert others to our cause and by God we won’t do that when we have sites constantly undermining the only political party in Scotland capable of doing so. Nicola Sturgeon has stated that she still wants to hold Indyref2 this year. Let’s continue to get behind her or if not and support plummets, to Westminster glee, we can just forget it. Give up or soldier on? Continue to put up a real fight for your country or not? Allow key individuals to manipulate, create division and infighting or not? Your choice.

    • Spot on Petra, yes it was disappointing for committed Yes supporters but we have only had one positive poll for independence, despite the crap coming from Westminster, if the MSM were impartial the polls would be consistently for Yes – that’s what we and Nicola in particular is up against – she has to appeal to the majority and sadly we yessers are still very much in the minority – I for one wont give up the fight and will continue to try and persuade friends and colleagues that becoming an independent country is only natural and an absolute necessity if we are to keep looking outward.

      To Paul – hope you had a great honeymoon and wont get too discouraged by today, onwards and upwards.

      • Sorry I disagree that yessers are very much in the minority.

        If you take the figure that voted for devolution in 1997 that is the potential for independence. I believe we are over the 50% mark now.

        • Hope you are right but where is the evidence – needs to be consistent over several months to be meaningful surely?

          • Skintybroko, I think the last three polls showing a majority for Yes is some evidence. These were all done prior to actually leaving the EU on Friday.

  14. I for one feel there is now no one left to vote for. I have voted three times to give the SNP a mandate for a referendum, and I’m now expected to vote once more in 2021. What’s the point when they won’t use it? Today we needed hope and now I have none. I am losing my European citizenship, the people of my country will be put at risk and our economy devastated but those I put my trust in are happy to allow it to happen. A depressing day has just got even worse.

  15. Och, and here was me thinking that she was going to announce that she had instructed John Swinney to raise a Scottish Republican Army and march on Edinburgh Castle, Faslane and Lossiemouth and drive the English insurgents from our land.Not.
    I wonder what all those who felt ‘betrayed’ by today’s speech expected her to say?
    It is clear that in the coming weeks when Brexit really starts to bite, there will be a resounding call for a legal challenge to be submitted to the Scottish courts.
    If our own judiciary were to side with the English parliament and declare an independence referendum ‘illegal’, now and forever, thus reducing Scotland to the status of an English colony, a militarily conquered nation forever, no matter how we Scots vote, then all bets are off.

    However I struggle to see the point or necessity in a hastily convened Constitutional Convention in the first quarter of 2020.
    It will resolve nothing, that we don’t already know.

    Imagine Leonard Rennie and Carlaw, and Union Jack Murray and Union Jack Governor General even agreeing to attend?
    I struggle to think what else Nicola Sturgeon could have said today.

    However, I contend that there is no such thing as an ‘illegal’ or ‘unlawful’ Referendum, if the Scottish Parliament decide to hold one.
    If any Unionists ‘boycotts’ it, it is merely a spoilt ballot, just like in any other democratic plebiscite.

    We go in 2020.
    If Carlaw Jack and Gove believe that we are just going to roll over and die, they are even bigger fools than they have demonstrated themselves to be so far.
    The Union is finished.

    • Jack … ” When Brexit starts to bite”…

      It won’t be too long before the Scottish farmers and fishers realise that they’ve been shafted by LBJ and his lies re. the Irish border become common knowledge. And the rest. That should see support for independence rise. Add to that the 16/17 year olds and EU Nationals? that weren’t included in the YouGov poll. I reckon that when we see a consistent over 50% plus LBJ will have no other choice than to transfer the powers to hold a referendum over to Holyrood.

      ……

      Cubby your No 1 is out of the question, imo, too dodgy. And who’s to say that she won’t implement No’s 2 or 3 yet, especially if she sees support rising? The latter is key to it all. People ready to throw the SNP baby out with the bath water should get a grip of themselves. Faint heart never won fair lady, as the saying goes. Instead of people griping and making accusations they should redouble their efforts to convert others and get, as an example, the WBB out as the SNP distribute their independence prospectus to every household in Scotland.

      • Petra, what is dodgy about no. 1.

        Also what was the point of the Referendum bill and all the hard work putting it through the Scottish parliament if you ain’t going to use it.

        Ok so we follow Nicolas plan and polls start saying 60% to 70% yes then what? If Johnson or any UK PM is not going to agree a sect 30 when the polls are showing 50/50 are they really going to agree it then.

        If the plan is in the long term we will get independence then it should be remembered that in the long term we are all dead.

        If Nicola delivers on an independence referendum in 2020 then fine but it just seemed it was a case of both Johnson and Sturgeon are both too scared to have a referendum. Too scared of losing it.

      • Petra, according to an unattributed 200 words in the Daily Raggard, nothing will happen tomorrow, and indeed the remaining 11 months of 2020.
        Of course the average WATP/Up Ra Ra ‘readers’ of this Police Gazette look at bums and tits pics, and sweat over transfer deadlines.
        They don’t mind being under House Arrest by their Imperial Masters to the South.
        I have it from the horse’s mouth that NI Police are stationed at the border to the South sa I type, and the Republic has a uniformed presence as well.

        For any Blah to write such ‘nothing to see here, move on.; garbage serves to illustrate how brainwashed ProudScotButters Brit Nat hacks really are.
        Treachery? I’ll show you treachery,

    • A far as I can see Westminster copy USA and appoint judges that reach the decisions that Westminster want
      Scotland can do that too

  16. 1.She could have set a date for a referendum and placed the ball back in Johnstons court.

    2. She could have stated that Scot parliament next year will be a vote for independence.

    3. She could have said if the sect 30 is not granted then she will force a Scot parliament election this year on a vote for independence.

    No she did not do anything. It was like a surrender speech.

    • Yes – I do miss some form of coherent plan. I actually thought she might go with the snap election and consultative referendum at the same time whether powers to dissolve the Union should lie clearly with Holyrood. The polls are giving SNP 50% and this referendum would end up with at least 60% supporting these powers to be clearly in Holyrood’s remit. It all sounded a bit too defeatist when people need a bit of a nudge.

      • You have summed-up the situation very nicely. Whatever the long-term plan, the tone today was all wrong. Scotland is being wronged today, and it required a commensurate response.

    • That’s one way of looking at it , I can see why you say that , the speech regurgitated the same drivel we have become accustomed to over the last three years but on the bright side I would say that once a Scottish independence supporter always a Scottish independence supporter because the daily politics that change over time as policies are introduced and dropped depending on who is in power never affect the basic tenet of wanting ones country to cease being wagged like a dogs tail by a Westminster that cares not a jot about Scotland and Scottish people.
      The speech today will be read and understood differently by different people depending on where they stand with regards Scotland’s right to decide if it becomes independent or stays a part of U.K. under the control of Westminster.

  17. your final thoughts make me wonder if there is one more chance for FM to find a bit of fire to spark up tonight at one of the gatherings?

  18. It feels like 19/09/14, only worse because of Brexit and BJ. Gutted that Brexit is happening and there seems no plan for the future. Nicola seems to be saying more of the same, when I had hoped for a plan beyond converting the NOs. I’ve been on street stalls where we were getting good feedback, marches and discussions but, with the Tories in rampant, jubilent mood, who knows what they’ll come up with to undermine or restrict what Hollyrood can do and many people seem to believe his promises.
    if BJ says NO again, I’d like to see an appeal to the ICJ on the Anniverary of the Declaraion of Arbroath and an appeal to the international community. We are told the world is watching but we need to show we are ready to fight for our sovereignty.

    • Aye, I’ve been shedding tears again tonight and it feels just like 19/09/14 – except that I’m now over 5 years closer to death so won’t have as long to put up with WM rule – in fact probably even less time than I would once their new austerity measures bite. Roll on the end ’cause their is bugger all left to hope for.

      • Aw Weechid come on don’t give up hoping for independence yet. Who knows what’s just around the corner? I’m sure you’ll be on here celebrating with the rest of us in the very near future.

  19. My previous post on the PC looks like it’s still in moderation so a quick reprise .

    Every single post poring scorn on Nicola & the SNP is by now causing great hilarity by the ones who are paid to follow and gauge the mood and general direction of everyone who supports Independence , Please don’t help the ones who will use this input to steer the Unionists in their preferred direction,DONT HELP THEM .

    Pretty Please ! .

      • Instance Independence aint on offer terence , and Cubby calm doon ok its not been a great day but telling Nicola to f/k off aint going to make it better is it .

        • Robert, I’m not telling Nicola Sturgeon to f/off. Sorry but you misinterpret my post.

          Read it again where does it say Nicola Sturgeon. That is just your wrong interpretation. There is no way I am saying she is a Britnat or a phoney independence supporter. Hopefully that is crystal clear to all.

    • Why, my declining confidence in the SNP does not equate to me becoming a unionist. In fact quite the opposite and me looking for a more radical party. The unionist parties may be celebrating now but it may be short lived.

    • FCUK the Britnats and phoney independence supporters.

      Needed that. Feel a lot better. Sorry if you are offended unless you are a Britnat.

  20. The legal challenge described in Nicola sturgeons speech and the following 5 things she said can be seen as progress but will not satisfy a lot of independence supporters

    I am of the opinion that once you support Scottish independence you never go back
    Ups and downs are the name of the game
    I’m in it for the long run…..ARE YOU ?

    1)
    In the first instance we will invite Scotland’s elected representatives – MSPs, MPs, the MEPs elected last year and council leaders – to come together to endorse a modern Claim of Right for Scotland through a new Constitutional Convention.

    2)
    September I confirmed that the Scottish Government would start the work needed to ensure that people have the information they need to make informed choices about the future of the country.

    3)
    And from the Spring, we will respond to the report of the Citizens Assembly and engage with its views on what kind of Scotland people want to see and how we can achieve it.

    4)
    Our party campaign is therefore ready to ramp up. We will double SNP campaign spending this year to support new independence materials, local newspaper adverts and a new campaign film focused on undecided voters.

    5)
    Or as the great Nelson Mandela said – ‘It always seems impossible until it is done’.

  21. The speech might be aimed at soft noes and the undecideds, and I for one would approve of that BUT. From her speech two effective contradictions:

    “Firstly, I will continue to do all that I can to secure a referendum this year. ” i.e. #indyref2020. BUT

    “We aim to double the SNP campaign budget this year to support new independence materials, local newspaper adverts and a new campaign film focused on undecided voters.”

    So in other words the first claim, which is at least a bit more honest than before as it has the words “all that I can”, is still being made dishonestly. Because if it was honest she wouldn’t be saying “this year” in the second, clearlhy according to her actual plan, she would be saying “over the next few weeks” (not months).

    In other words again, she knows and has known she had no intention of the consultative referendum, nor did she have any secret plan like getting an interdict to block Brexit and force BoJo to rush through the Sextion 30.

    She lied by omission, and I don’t like being lied to, she must go and someone honest take over. Independence will be won only by the Truth, the Whole Truth, amd Nothing But the Truth. As I used to post on the Grun back in 2012.

    Anyways, if the SNP don’t mean what they say about referendums, not much point in me wasting more precious time supporting a lie. TIme to get a life. I will of course vote YES if I haven’t got am Irish passport, and we haven’t moved to Ireland, but no point in campaigning for a Referendum which at Sturgeon’s meek and cowardly pace won’t happen until 2307.

    • Trying to figure out how, “I’ll do all that I can to secure a referendum this year” and “we aim to double the campaign budget this year” is a sign that NS is lying, Yesindyref2? For all we know campaign material may start being distributed over the next few weeks.

      • In fact I’ve just read that campaign info and material can be found / downloaded etc from the new yes.scot site as of today.

  22. A commendably measured response there, Paul. Ever one to look for the upside, for which thanks. It has cheered me up somewhat after a very serious misreading of the situation by Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP fainthearts, an error for which we may all pay and regret at our leisure.

  23. I wasn’t expecting a date for the referendum today, but the speech initially made me angry now I’m just dejected. Leadership and management are different things, a very few can excel at both. In 2014 when Alex resigned, Nicola stepped in and provided the steady hand needed, as First Minister she has proven to be very good at managing the situation, now the independence movement needs leadership. To yet again build a speech up as crucial to the next steps for Independence then for much of it to be basically the same as all the others- wait, hold etc is to badly misread the mood of the movement today. It could be argued that today’s speech wasn’t directed at us, and that could be said for almost all of Nicola’s speeches – the bigger picture etc – but in all organisations and movements good leaders spot when bolstering each other is needed.
    Nicola and some within her inner circle have at times shown disdain for the marches and now give grudging support to them, they may not convince No voters but they are crucial to maintaining our morale. Many of us spend a lot of time in the company of people who will never support Independence so we need them for our own good.Today many of us are hurting over Brexit, over Boris and the Tories we needed empathy and a passionate defence of Scotland to know that Nicola really shares our anger at the injustice, but as Paul said we got managerialism.
    Today was a day for a rallying cry to get us all motivated for the difficult days ahead. The same message could have been within the speech but the presentation left me feeling that whilst we are to be very careful not to hurt no voters feelings it was completely forgotten that we have feelings too and we are sore.

  24. Disappointing speech ( to say the least ) but the extreme reaction from so many on certain blogs is disheartening ( Yes , I mean YOU Stu ! ) .
    If we were all to follow his example and flounce off ( to the sun ? ) , throwing out our pram toys in disgust , then there would be no YES movement left to keep the flame alive .

    NOW is the time to keep our faith ( not in NS or the SNP or even Wings ) and see that some of what the First Minister said was sensible – but we do NEED a bit of fire and passion along with this cerebral approach .

      • Sorry ? No YES movement left ? Then who is running all those Yes associations up and down the country ?
        Show some optimism for Pete’s sake !

        • Ha ha ha. If you knew me at all you would know that I’m one of the most optimistic people that you’ll ever come across, Millsy, especially when it comes to believing that we’ll get our independence soon. I’m also involved with Yes associations, Gordon MacIntyre Kemp’s Ambassador programme, etc, etc. You just didn’t get the point that I was trying to make. Obscure I admit. For a reason.

  25. “more persuading” – yes but are the SNP doing that? The Yes voting intention is still pretty 50/50 and I bet a lot of the 45 to 50 came from Westminsters pantomime Brexit performance. I asked the SNP about the GERS figures and what they were doing to show that they are widely thought to be unfair/misleading now and not even relevent to an independent Scotland. I got a very poor one line non-answer. Not a good way to treat supporters let alone ‘persuade’ non-supporters.

    Polls in 2014 showed that the economy was the most important factor in deciding to vote No. GERS it seems was and will still be a big part of any uncertainty because apart from many many words about how useless GERS is, the £14 billion deficit still gets thrown around. I would bet that if you asked most independence supporters to say what the current deficit should be, they couldn’t, other than by mentioning the factors (Trident, HS2 etc) that are loaded onto it by Westminster, but not quantifiably. It took me a long time to find an article that did what I thought should have been done by the SNP many years ago, namely to strip out questionable costs and provide a more realistic GERS.

    https://commonweal.scot/policy-library/beyond-gers-scotlands-fiscal-position-post-independence

    I also haven’t seen any the many excellent charts or posters that have been produced stating what a more realistic GERS figure would be. If I was from another country and was totally objective, without a reasonable view on the economy, I couldn’t say one way or another if independence in Scotland was a good thing. The alternate GERS figures in this article would allow me to make a much better judgement.

    So just using GERS as an example of ‘persuasion’, it seems too often that the SNP’s plan to persuade is by simply repeating phrases – ‘being dragged out against our will’. That’s playing to Westminsters side of bus method and my guess is that many of the undecided Yes/No voters are more objective than most and are looking for more than slogans. By highlighting a more realistic view of Scotland’s economy via (S)GERS, this would actually help persuade those willing or even seeking a good reason to vote yes. Without that, they would likely play safe and vote No.

    So yes the SNP do need to persuade more, but it needs to be more informative.

    Maybe todays speech and the reaction to it will be a wake-up call to the SNP.

    Bear in mind I’m thinking here specifically of the undecided voters. If Yes gets to 60+, a referendum will be hard to resist. Just give the ‘not sure’s’ the information and leave the pantomime stuff to the unionists. After all it’s all they’ve really got now thanks to Brexit.

        • Derek MacKay’s alternative to GERS will be published in August to coincide with the Westminster GERS, Ian. Meanwhile Nicola Sturgeon announced today that their prospectus including data relating to the economy will be sent out (to every household in Scotland) soon.

          I’ve also mentioned on here that their new yes.scot site now has information to access / material to download.

          We all know that the myth of Scotland being too poor to go it alone resonates, especially with the elderly, so yes we have to find ways to circumvent the biased MSM blockage and get that data out there. Fear of losing the SNHS to privatation is also high on the list, so let’s get that one hammered home too.

    • If Johnson will not agree to a sect 30 when polls are 50/50 why do you think he or any other PM will agree if polls are showing 60+%. He is odds on to lose – so why agree?

      That is what I am struggling to understand in the – ” let’s get the polls higher strategy and everything will be fine”.

      • I responded to the matter of persuading undecided voters to vote Yes. I don’t expect Westminster to ever agree to a referendum and suspect that a court may be the final arbitor. If support for independence was 65/35 rather than 50/50, the case for claiming that a referendum should happen would in my view be much stronger. That’s why I’d like to see the polls higher for Yes. And to do that, concerns about the economy in Scotland need to be addressed, eg GERS.

        • That pile of mince called GERS should have been binned years ago. A big mistake by the Scotgov – allowing newspapers to print stupid £15 billion deficit headlines.

          The political case for a referendum will be greater the greater the support in the polls but will the legal case? Surely a court decision will be based on the law and that will not change due to polling figures.

  26. Third attempt at posting!
    I listened to Nicola’s announcement this morning and like many others I hoped she would name a date – and already I can see a lot of the impatient hotheads on Facebook, mouthing off and stirring it with a giant wooden spoon – but of course, Nicola is right – it has to be watertight or it’ll be challenged and we will end up like Catalonia!
    In the meantime Boris will show his true colours and the more he goads the Scots, the more he turns folk into Indy supporters. I see this all the time, folk I know for a fact voted No are now angry at how we are being ignored and treated like 💩 and they have come over to Indy – one of them was actually a Tory voter!
    In the meantime instead of being keyboard warriors, get out and actually speak to real folk, support the local Yes groups, leaflet round the doors, hold social evenings and invite speakers, do all the stuff that the activists did first time round, only this time, it should be easier because all the things we said would happen did and we’ve been proved right!

    Boris has NO positive case to keep us in the UK especially against our will and he knows it. All they offer is more and more isolation, bigotry, xenophobia, hardship and trade deals with countries who will be dictating the terms because the UK is so desperate! None of this is good for the prosperity of anyone except the big money men!
    Just wait until it affects foreign holidays to EU countries and folk have to pay for visas to travel to Disneyland Paris for the weekend with the kids!
    Minds will be changed and it’s up to us Indy supporters to enable that change – let’s get out there and do it!

    • Great post, too many nay sayers today the blogs and HYS are inundated with so called yes supporters who are no longer voting SNP etc most of them are more than likely not Yes supporters but there are a few well kent names posting despondency and woe is me I know better etc. Now is the time we need to stand together, our time will come soon enough

    • Good one Heather.

      Nicola Sturgeon’s request for control over immigration earlier this week, and it’s knockback, also sent out a clear message to EU Nationals, their friends and colleagues that Independence is the only way to protect themselves. Add to that those who have trusted Westminster getting their eyes opened when even more promises are seen to be broken, deals not accomplished and the orange toddler ruling the UK roost becomes more apparent.

      We are heading in the right direction. Let’s not shoot ourselves in the foot now.

    • Well said, heather.
      If 51%, 58% of under65’s, and the poll does not include 16/17 year olds and Eu Nationals, now support Independence, do the Brit Nats really believe that we are all going to put up with rule by England any more?
      The Union is dead…they’ll try to drag out losing their colony for a few more years until they have sucked all the oil and gas out and transported billions of bonded Scotch South.
      But Independence is inevitable now. Even blustering buffoons like Carlaw Rennie and Leonard know this.
      They are merely aiding and abetting the plunder of Scots resources by the retreating Imperial Rearguard.

      And the sad and evil thing is that they know that. They stand by while their fellow Scots are robbed

      • So if Heather is not going to answer. Do you want to Jack since you said “Well said Heather” how exactly will we end up like Catalonia?

    • ….”Boris has NO positive case to keep us in the UK”….

      WTAF!

      That has never stopped them. In fact Westminster has never cared if it has a good case – it doesn’t need to because it has full access to Scotland and its resources (not to mention being its nuclear site).

      Westminster isn’t courting you to be a new member, you are already sucked into that brutal relationship so it doesn’t really. If a positive case was the determining factor for being in the UK the British empire would have never happened because there was never a positive case for any of the colonised countries to be invaded by England…have you forgotten Northern Island exists?

      • Tol, exactly. Some people don’t seem to grasp the reality. It is not and never has been about a positive case for the Union. It is all about power and propaganda.

        It is an English/Westminster dictatorship – they are parasites.

    • Whilst I agree that getting out and convincing folks over indy as post-Brexit realities dawn and will sway some, our greater problem is circumventing the MSM drip-feed of propaganda while they silence the debunking from the likes of the National, SNP, John Robertson, Richard Murphy, etc., etc.. We need to find a way of amplifying this information such that MSM are denied monopoly over dictating mainstream dialogue.
      The QEUH nonsense is a case in point where the drip-feed from PQ has never stopped, and THEY decide what is broadcast. eg John Robertson got a written retraction from Donalda McKinnon on the “contaminated water = death” line they asserted, not a word on their output, and they only changed the wording. The false premise remains embedded in the minds of many and is regularly referred to in London media output despite being entirely bogus. Falling education standards, failing SNHS, etc., are as much a common perception as “subsidy junkies”.
      The Phantom Power films are a perfect example of slick production getting the message across in the modern day, and the recent IndyrefTwo YouTube channel though presently underutilised and a little haphazard, has significantly greater potential reach than the National (No offence intended to those working hard at the National and on IndyrefTwo) of being browsed and distributed.
      There will dozens of folk out there who could edit and contribute to the IndyrefTwo site to better expose the techniques used by PQ to convey the lies and debunk them mercilessly, and the beauty is the Beeb are unable to change technique to hide the “message” without being exposed.
      I sincerely believe that a great many NOs (and older generations for whom BBCS is the sole source of trusted information) are blissfully unaware of the horseshit they are being fed.
      Broadcast is out of the question, so so exposing the lies and how folks are being manipulated on YouTube would go a long way to throttling MSM influence on key numbers in the electorate and enabling those conversations to be had.

  27. This is the end of the Tories. Into oblivion for another 30 years. They will muck up again. Just like before. Deja Vu. Every one will be voted out in Scotland.

    Scotland will be Independent in the EU. People just have to vote for it. Times they are a changing like never before. Thatcher had to go. It will all end in tears again.

    Johnston does not have a clue. The clueless wonders. Obvious for all to see. Offending so many people.

  28. I agree absolutely with your final three paragraphs.
    From my perspective the message may, and it’s a big may, have been right but there was no inspiration as to how we get through this.
    The response to the recent article by your fellow columnist, Angus Robertson, which punted what we heard today, should have acted as an enormous wake up call to the SNP.
    Many people have worked their socks off for the last few years – leafleting, marching, learning facts, crowd funding – and today all we got was what – nothing to aim towards.
    I am actually quite devastated.
    I am trying believe that ‘Scotland is on the path to independence’ but after today my belief and trust has been sorely dented.

    • That’s what most people are saying and I don’t know how it could have happened. It’s like NS was drained of all energy. And I understand that she needs to persuade soft noes and maybes foremost but she also has to give something to the people who are doing all the hard graft on the ground. There was nothing wrong with the gist of a message, but there were things missing in it. I do hope that his will be a kind of a wake-up call and that something else will come during the next days because division is something the English/British nationalist would just love to see.

      • I think that another website has geared people up for a big Scottish independence announcement by Nicola Sturgeon
        But no big announcement along the lines expected by visitors to that other site was ever planned by NS

  29. Indy will not take very long. Johnston will soon be gone. Any Westminster leader that dies not support Indy will not last very long. It will be muck up, after muck. That’s for sure. Who wants the poison chalice?

    GERs nonsense.is posted all over the internet. Easily contradicted. Just look up UK (Scottish} Gov accounts . To see the contradictions. Easily found. Details all over the internet. Anyone who claims ignorance with access to the internet. Is just lazy. It can be found in 5 mins.

    Others sometimes do not have good connections. Still can join and find out . Donated campaign etc. Even given in some press reports. National etc. Can get a copy in many outlets now. Even sent out.

  30. “.. a speech that didn’t live up to expectations”.

    what, there are actually folk out there who thought we were going to get better than this?? Please.

    This is a speech that said “come screw us Boris, we can/will do nothing to stop you”.

    From the SNP’s present leadership, it was completely predictable.

    That it should come to this ..

  31. Normally look in on ‘Wings’ most days – today was an absolute SNP hate-fest.
    Stu can be a very brittle, antagonistic, foul-mouthed type of guy ( who just loves to live off others donations) and he certainly was on form today.
    My own opinion now doubts his beliefs in Indy as a cause, it’s all self, self, “How right was I…”, etc – from his base in the soft south of Boris’ fiefdom!!
    Well, I will certainly not be donating to him any more.
    Boris may well offer him a knighthood for what he’s done for the Britnat cause today.

    • You said that already….who do you think would work harder for independence and successfully run our country at the same time? Who else would take, and deal with, all the sh?t that she gets every day from the BritNat politicians squatting in our parliament? The derogation of the MSM for the last 6 years and recently the utter bitterness shown by some who claim to be supporters of Indy? When did Nicola Sturgeon last take a holiday? A pay rise? I think she may have had a day off at Christmas but I bet she didn’t forget her day job even then!

      • Thanks Diane for getting right down to the nitty gritty that so many just can’t see.

        If you want to know what’s going on just look at Nicola Sturgeon’s eyes. She’s totally worn out now but who cares? Independence supporters? High time that the wee keyboard warriors that do no more than shuffle their ars*s around their seats and moan their heads off got real.

        You know the folks. Lazy, mumping plebs. They don’t plod the streets or donate to the SNP. Just leave it all to SNP supporters / donators to do the hard graft for them.

        Scunnered doesn’t quite explain how annoyed I am with them. More so on Nicola Sturgeon’s behalf.

        • What worries me the last few days – is that while I think the Yes movement is a positive phenomenon – some of the vitriol over FM’s speech makes it sound as is some elements are becoming ‘it’s all about us’ – and not Scotland any more. Some are beginning to sound more like Westminster’s ‘it’s all about us’ – we’re beginning, in some places to sound exactly the same.

          • When Scotland produces something special like Nicola Sturgeon. There is always a percentage of us who will never accept this, probably caused through some kind of jealousy.

          • Good point and ever considered that they may actually be one and the same, in relation to some quarters, Mrs Hunter?

  32. Thank you once again. In the darkest of times you shine a light for Indy which gives me just enough hope to keep going. Today this is sorely needed and I am in tears of gratitude.

  33. With apologies and a nod to HST.

    “Strange memories on this nervous night in Auld Reekie. Five years later? Six? It seems like a lifetime, or at least a Main Era—the kind of peak that never comes again. Scotia in the end years was a very special time and place to be a part of. Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run . . . but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant. . . .

    History is hard to know, because of all the hired bullshit, but even without being sure of “history” it seems entirely reasonable to think that every now and then the energy of a whole generation comes to a head in a long fine flash, for reasons that nobody really understands at the time—and which never explain, in retrospect, what actually happened.

    My central memory of that time seems to hang on one or five or maybe forty nights – or very early mornings – when I would awaken in a dumbstruck haze and wonder when the spider would make the leap of faith; when that “thank fuck” hold might finally extricate us from the abyss. Where art thou brave warrior? O redeemer of faith. Tied tightly in a contrived wrangle and squeezed ticht by the prodigy fair socht by mony. Take us tae yon place where folk are just as high and wild as we are. Away from that sordid sodomy of Crown and counsel..

    But there was madness in every direction. If not across borders then up in the skies and in that white saltire that seared the deep blue yonder. You could strike sparks anywhere. There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were doing was right, that we were winning. . . .

    All we had to do was say “yes”.

    And that, I think, was the handle—that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn’t need that. These days, our warriors wear skirts not kilts. Our energy would simply prevail. We have been ignored for too long; our voices fall only on deaf ears. Yet we had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . .

    Or so we thought.

    So now, less than six years later, you can go up Salisbury Crags and look North West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark—that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. Taking our dreams and our hopes.

    For the want of caution and the loss of conviction.”

    • Well Mark a real poignant piece, but for those who believe that they’ll “be taking our dreams and our hopes” they’ve got another think coming. Don’t despair this ain’t over with yet. Far from it.

      • I’m not despairing, Petra – far from it. It is unfortunate that the SNP put all their eggs in the EU basket – by pledging to “Stop Brexit” and failing. I think most people will now think that as a mistake – but try and see it as a process and it merely becomes a missed opportunity.

        To do all the things we want – to achieve the kind of society we all crave – we have to leave two political and economic unions – the EU and the UK. Boris – or more importantly, our neighbours in England have conveniently provided us with the first piece in the jigsaw. Now it’s our turn.

        Personally, I hope Nicola stays the course – she’s everything we’d hope from a Scottish leader – feisty, gallus, honest and measured. And from a council estate – not one with big gates. I fully understand Stu Campbell’s frustration, but it’s always about perspective. Much is unfolding away from these islands on a far bigger stage. We are all on a learning curve. Everyone. And we will need people of her calibre in the times ahead.

        Scots have a natural tendency to denigrate those amongst us who have the audacity to stick their heads above the wall: “Ah ken yer faither”….but we do well to remember the maxim of walking in other shoes to gain true enlightenment.

        The British Establishment are celebrating. They have the freedom to do whatever they want now – reap the harvest of their magic money tree, unconstrained by the EU neoliberal policies and regulations. Just like many other sovereign countries are doing too. Of course, there will be money and jobs and maybe a move towards a more environmentally sustainable economy – but by then it’ll be too late.

        Scotland still has a remarkable opportunity to lead the way towards a different kind of global society and I can’t think of any better person to take us there than our present First Minister. But she’ll need all the support we can provide. The sum of the parts is always greater than the whole.

        All thee best.

    • It is Nicola Sturgeons job to lead us to independence…..It is our job to support her and fight with the movement – not undermine the position WE put her in. I believe she/we will succeed but we need to work together.

  34. Nicola has betrayed us. Who’s to say she hasn’t become a unionist? She certainly acts like one when not addressing Scots.

    We need a new party.

    • That’s more like it. Well done J. Cherry. Now please set up classes for your colleagues to learn how to do the same.

      You can assert yourself as Ms Cherry does without being rude or shouting.

  35. Wise words as usual, but from someone who had to tell their mother how to vote in the 1979 devolution vote at the age of 11, sadly I cannot see light at the end of the tunnel. 🙁

    I really hope one day I can.

    • One scot , as long as there are people like yourself and people such as those on here and WOS and the others there will always be light at the end of the tunnel because we never give up .
      Young people have broken through the propaganda barrier because of the internet , you cannot trick them the way their grandparents were tricked by newspapers and the BBC both of which were and still are held high as examples of truthful honest reporters of news and facts.

      We now know they are the opposite

      Older folk would be denying a great many of the beliefs they hold close to their hearts about things that they supported over the years things that they only supported on the basis of what the Westminster government and BBC and the newspapers told them were true.

      To accept that their government the BBC and newspapers have been lying to them and to accept that many of the wars and military actions carried out in their name were in fact murderous invasions for monetary profit would be too much for them .
      They doggedly hold onto their beliefs and their support of Westminster politics the BBC and the newspapers because to do otherwise would make them admit they were tricked and the lives taken in all those wars and invasions were taken unnecessarily

      The current older generation of over 65s cling on to the belief that governments can’t possibly murdering thousands and thousands of people across the world for money

      The biggest trick , nuclear weapons that they stupidly call defence

      My generation had this discussion in the nineteen sixties about the stupid lie that we have a defence budget running into hundreds of millions when nobody ever attacks us and nobody is ever likely to attack us we realised that it is not a defence budget it is an attack budget used to attack other countries primarily to destabilise those countries and then install bribable leaders that can be bought off in exchange for selling us their oil and other resources for a fraction of the value and you can rest assured that many of those who prosper from all this can be found in Westminster and hol

  36. This is the most important piece of writing in this whole debacle:

    ‘ Scottish independence allows those of us who choose a Scottish citizenship to exercise it, it allows those Scots who identify as British to continue as British. Scottish independence would allow anyone who identifies as British in Scotland to retain their British citizenship, their British passport, their British identity. If any of those things were to be lost to British people in Scotland as a result of Scotland becoming independent it would be as a result of decisions made by Westminster, not by Holyrood.’

    Very well said and I think it will ease the minds of many of our citizens who ‘fear’ Scottish Independence…..ultimately, hopefully turning many of them to the ‘Yes’ side.

  37. This is the most important piece of writing in this whole debacle:

    ‘ Scottish independence allows those of us who choose a Scottish citizenship to exercise it, it allows those Scots who identify as British to continue as British. Scottish independence would allow anyone who identifies as British in Scotland to retain their British citizenship, their British passport, their British identity. If any of those things were to be lost to British people in Scotland as a result of Scotland becoming independent it would be as a result of decisions made by Westminster, not by Holyrood.’

    Very well said and I think it will ease the minds of many of our citizens who ‘fear’ Scottish Independence…..ultimately, hopefully turning many of them to the ‘Yes’ side.

  38. Great post Paul. Well in 35 minutes I will be robbed by a foreign power for that is what I consider the UK government. They will be stealing my EU citizenship something I will not forget and am unlikely to forgive.I understand why so many are disappointed by NS speech today but I wonder what people really expected. the Snp are still our best chance for Indy but Scotland is between a rock and a hard place just now I think a legal challenge re Indyref2 will come in time unless Boris develops some common sense -not going to happen. I don’t see how changing Snp leadership or new indy parties will make indy ref 2 more likely. I will light a candle soon as a vigil for my EU citizenship and and also as a light in the darkness as a hope for a free Scotland but that can only be won by the votes of the Scottish people not by any political party

    • I’ve been walking this road since 1974 my feet are getting sore I agree with your last part politicians are not the answer if there is someone out there that can draw up a document for independence not a petition and get less than 3million printed and get everyone to sign there individual copy there is nothing anyone can do because the people of Scotland are sovereign

  39. What are we waiting for, do a standard document, each one separately all our signatures on our own documents, then have them delivered, post them through the post, email and gmail them, Facebook them and keep a copy for yourselves, this way it is not classed as a partition, we are not partitioning to anyone, we are making a statement that we are claiming our sovereign right to choose a new government that will be acting under the sovereignty of the Scottish people. Send and post to Nicola sturgeon as direct as is possible, lend your sovereignty to her, to give her the ability to act on all our behalfs, use it or lose it.

  40. So if there is doubt that an advisory referendum may not be within the Scottish Governments legal competence then why risk a one day referendum to be challenged and deemed illegal. Surely the Scottish Government can ask the nation the question by use of other means. For example a survey of the population via the post office. There is precedence in a country that adheres to the Common Law of England that country is Australia….There is always more than one way to remove the skin from a cat…..follow the link to see some thinking outside the square that worked in order to solve a very vexing issue

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Marriage_Law_Postal_Survey

  41. Let NS and the SNP get on with running Scotland they are making not a bad job of it under the circumstances of having WM and the UK media running a campaign against them at every chance they get. They can then back the YES movement in getting organised, with all the Yes movements coming together as one national movement, let us all work together to get independence. We the people of Scotland can then sort out our differences ourselves.

  42. Just vote for it. Vote out all the Tory/unionists. Vote them out. It is quite simple. Use the Ballot Box. No more unionists left to make trouble.

    Johnston is going to muck up big time, Nicola makes a speech, Johnston is no where to be seen. Hiding again.

    17million votes out of an electorate of 45million. 65million pop is not a majority. The Tories are mucking up big time,

    Scotland will be Independent within five years. If people vote for it, People want to stay in the EU.

    In or out of the EU Scotland is better off Independent. Using resources and revenues to improve the Scottish economy. Not London S/E. Putting all the Scottish revenues and resources to good use. Not wasted by Westminster unionists.

    Westminster appalling economic, social and foreign policy. Since 1928 and before. From crisis to crisis of their own making.

    Westminster illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion.

    Scotland is going in the right direction. People in Scotland just need to vote for it. To get better and better. Scotland has come a long way since Devolution 2000. Only twenty years ago. it will get even better.

    Support for the SNP and Independence rising. Scotland will be Independent within the next five years. If people vote for it. Back in the EU as well. Brexit will never happen. Demographic changes. The Tory Party are just a bunch of fools. Vote them out. Labour has been voted out. The power is in the people’s hand. Use it.

  43. Agreed. By next year those young adults who were 9 in 2014 can now vote for independence. We can get the undecided to vote for independence in greater numbers and those persons disgusted with the Brexit tories and the labour and libdem britnats who put little England first. Even those EU citizens who voted No ( believing that Scotland would be kicked out of the EU) may not be allowed to vote or if they are permitted will now vote Yes. The news media by promoting the grinning Farage and the coward Johnson is putting people off from right wing direction of travel

    • THIS IS SO DANGEROUS.
      The future is not linear…just like now only with YES getting a Brexit boost.

      You have not factored in that Westminster is also capable of changing the very ground under you. Brexit will not be a smooth trajectory of normalcy. Have you forgotten already that the government has gifted itself Ministerial rule without parliament, emergency powers, planning for English soldiers on Scotlands streets, stockpiled body bags / morgue freezers…and singled that Holyrood/devolution is in its sights.

      That is not a country preparing for new trade relationships…that is what it would look like if an authoritarian govt was about to go to war with its population.

  44. I’ve seen a lot of folk, some SNP MP’s etc, stating the grassroots should work to get the polls to 60% then we’ll get our referendum. I’ll leave the fact Boris can still say no to one side, but which polls are being referred to?

    As far as I know none of the “major” polling organisations, YOUGOV etc, poll EU citizens or 16 and 17 year olds, demographics which will probably be over 60% for Independence. That will suppress the polling for yes by a few percentage points at least so effectively we’re being told to get 60% of those polled to support YES which given that there is, in my view, a solid 30% who will always vote for the union means we need to get over 90% of the other 70% convinced of Independence before we “might” get another referendum. That’s a pretty tall order when there is no fixed date to aim for as a lot of folk wont even be bothered to engage if they don’t actually have to make a decision yet.

    In addition we all know of rumours of polls which are not published because the information is inconvenient to one side or the other. What if the polling organisations simply decide not to poll on the Independence question, we’ve had very few this last year, or come under pressure not to publish the results. If the SNP commission a poll then the unionists will just say it’s been rigged to muddy the waters. We’ve all seen the way poll results can be manipulated to say what folk want.

    I can’t help but feel this 60% polling is a hostage to fortune, like the once in a generation quote.

    • Good question Andy. I may well ask my MP that question. Another one is why after last year spending months saying we will NOT be getting the referendum question checked by the Electoral Commission the Scotgov is now doing it. In fact the National had a big heading saying it was the Britnats trying to rig the question.

      They could have just got on with it earlier last year if they were going to cave in.

  45. Isn’t the solution that we need a separate leader to lead the campaign to dissolve the union? Sturgeon is the FM and she can’t hold that office which is for the whole of Scotland including the unionist part whilst simultaneously being a campaign leader for something that half of Scotland currently doesn’t support. That would be an abuse of her office, and risk a Puigedemont situation.

    The SNP should allow someone else to take on that leadership role. The office of FM is a managerial not a campaigning role.

  46. When I went to purchase my National this morning once again I found that some Britnat bastard had put them all out of sight and behind a bundle of a Britnat paper.

    Some of the letters published in the National today showed that the Cringe is still strong in Scotland even in independence supporters – assuming that the authors are independence supporters.

    There is no clear plan to obtain Scottish independence. That has to be the overriding task of an Independence Party. Keeping your fingers crossed that Westminster will at some time in the future agree a sect 30 is just pathetic. They are more likely to change the law to get rid of any possibility of a sect 30 order in the future. Cameron only agreed in 2014 because he was convinced there was no chance of a YES win. When he thought he might lose he broke the rules and published the VOW. Expecting Westminster to be democratic and play by the rules is just fantasy.

    Westminster does not do democracy when it comes to its colonies. If it did they would not have retained the parliamentary set up established 313 years ago that facilitates an English dictatorship. Our friends in England will not ride to our rescue as they obviously are more than happy with the current undemocratic set up and couldn’t care less about Scotland.

    All of the ” new” actions outlined by Nicola Sturgeon in her speech could have been done years ago. So does she have a “secret” plan yet to be revealed. It didn’t sound like that yesterday.

    If we accept we can only “leave” with Westminster’s legal agreement then we deny our nation of Scotland. We are relegating Scotland to a region of the UK. We deny our sovereignty. What would that make us?

    • “So does NS have a secret plan ” Well if it’s a secret plan why should she give any hints to it or even it’s existance. . . . .

      Its beyond stupid to think that the Scot Gov. Haven’t worked out their responses to Boris’s put down’s many moves in advance.

  47. And yet so many colonies managed to break away, Cubby, so why not us? There’s also the issue of possible court proceedings looming. It’s far from over yet.

    ………….

    Some facts from Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp’s site “Believe in Scotland.”

    http://www.believeinscotland.org

    • Petra, I never said it is over. Nor did I say give up. I give my opinion on what needs to change. That is a positive. That is not giving up. If I was giving up I wouldn’t bother posting here. If I was giving up I would be making arrangements to go off to the Canaries right now. I have no SNP party loyalty just as I have no loyalty specifically to other commentators. I comment as I see it.

      There is no reason Scotland cannot be an independent Nation but it needs a plan to achieve that. I believe there is a majority for independence right now. I may be wrong. If 52% with no confirmatory referendum is good enough to leave the EU then a small majority is good enough for Scottish independence.

      What is wrong is for the SNP to ask Independence supporters to give you a mandate for an independence referendum at multiple elections and do nothing.

      Why not just ask for a mandate for INDEPENDENCE. That used to be what the SNP was about. It is obviously much nicer to have an SNP MP than a Tory MP but ultimately that is not the aim. It is obviously much nicer to have the SNP running Holyrood than any Britnat party but ultimately that is not the aim.

      I would say that there is a case now that we tried the previous process from 2014 as it was a precedent. It was refused by the UK. It is now reasonable to say any majority in future elections will be a mandate for independence. That used to be SNP policy. The Britnats can hardly say an election under the law is illegal and if they boycott an election so what. The worst that can happen is a lot more SNP MPs and MSPs

      I always thought it was a bad decision to change to a referendum. More so this sect 30 gold standard referendum.

      We should never forget that it was not a majority of the people of Scotland that signed up to the Union in 1707 it was the political representatives. The political representatives in 2020 should be able to dissolve the Union.

      Steady as she goes is not a good enough plan – if it can even be classed as a plan. A new approach is needed. If it needs a new leader so be it. No individual is more important than the cause of independence. No political party is more important than the cause of independence.

      So please do not lump me in with WOS and the appalling latest post. There is always a silver lining and it is that the WOS site owner has gone off in the huff for a few months.

      • Cubby you seem to be suffering from some form of paranoia! When have I ever thought that you were anything other than a genuine independence supporter and where on earth have I lumped you in with what’s been going on, on that other site? Never and definitely not on here. The silver lining? I wasn’t aware of that and hope it becomes the status quo.

        I agree with much of what you have to say but I can’t see this situation continuing if support goes on rising. It’s always been the crux of the matter and who knows maybe Nicola Sturgeon is loathe to set a date before the Salmond case? If she had to set a date based on 51% support to find that support plummeted due to the MSM making a meal of the case where would that leave us? On the otherhand what comes out during the proceedings and the court ruling could see support actually rising. I’ve got no idea if this factors in at all, it’s just a thought.

        • It’s a very valid point – not the paranoi – I mean your point re Salmond case and support plummeting.

          It just reinforces the difficulty of actually getting a referendum never mind an independence majority. Even harder to get both at the same time on a UK legal basis.

          It is far from an easy task leading the SNP and I believe it would have been a easier task if the SNP had stuck to independence being based on a majority at an election. Elections are always legal and always come around on a regular basis.

  48. Isn’t it amazing that so many people continue to work their butts off for the independence cause, including Paul who has just posted his latest inspirational piece, whilst so many supporters seem to be prepared to just throw in the towel, worst still some key individuals seem to be hell bent on destroying our chances of getting our independence at all.

    Check out Professor John Robertson’s site for the latest news. He falls into the “working his butt off for us” category.

    https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com

  49. Pragmatic and measured statement from our thoughtful leader Nicola yesterday. Those expressing upset need to calm down and put their efforts into turning Holyrood 2021 elections into a a single issue referendum.

  50. We accuse the national press of being in a London Bubble, but we are in an independence bubble and forget others arent as wrapped up as ourselves in this.

    I know from friends and family members whilst not anti independence, they are indifferent at the moment as do not see any change with brexit. We left yesterday, but everything is the same, …for now.

    They want everything to stay the same as they do not like change, but change is coming, one way or another, brexit britain with queues at airports and roaming charges, higher prices in shops or independent Scotland in EU or EFTA.

    Things will change on if not well before December as the EU trade agreement needs to be agreed by around julyish to allow it time for EU 27 to ratify by December.

    By then the form the agreement will take, will be seen by everyone, even though we know it will be a complete change, others live in hope that there will be a free trade deal and their lives wont be affected.

    We need to work on converting the dont knows and nos, this is our job if we want independence to happen and not see a rerun of 2014. If we all converted at least one person in coming months we would be there.

    We need it to be more like 1997 where we saw an overwhelming majority than 2014 and to do that moaning about SNP and nicola Sturgeon just disnae cut it. Be constructive, not deconstructive as the UK establishment hope will splinter independence support with their normal divide and rule tactics.

    We have one more shot at this and then it will likely be another 10 years, so we need to get it right this time, 2014 was the dry run.

    So to everyone moaning are you part of the solution in converting people and helping in other ways or are you all part of the problem, sitting on your hands posting negativity online?

    As they say the choice is yours.

  51. So we get next year regular polls saying 70% for yes. Then what ? A constructive question.

    In 1997 you had a UK gov committed to Devolution and being pushed by the Council of Europe and the EU to deliver. Today?

    Suggesting it is a good idea to have a plan to achieve independence is not moaning. It seems bleedin obvious to me.

    I disagree we NEED to have 74% for independence. 52% is taking us out of the EU. It is a form of Cringe to think that Scots must have a super majority to get independence.

    Of course if you use an election as a mandate for independence you have ongoing opportunities for independence not ” one more shot at it”.

    PS it is difficult to post when sitting on your hands.

    • You do appear to be a very vocal one, can I ask what have you done apart fae moan?

      Or are you a sleeper 77th brigade member taking the penny and fulfilling the establishment goals?

      Given that you ignore my other comments that we are all in a bubble and there are other citizens in Scotland who are not as wrapped up in this.

      I suspect you are.

      • Hey undeadshaun a very poor response with no logic applied to valid questions put out there for people to reflect on. As I promised WGD I would not be uncivil to anyone while he is on his break. I will not break that promise. You may want to reflect on what you posted in the meantime.

        I am always willing to accept an apology given in the correct spirit.

        However, I have been known to bear grudges when an apology is not forthcoming.

        Of course if you keep your promise you will not be reading any of this right now.

        PS. I agreed with your comments about the bubble – happy now – oh that’s right you won’t be reading this.

  52. Reporting Scotland today

    At the demo at Holyrood the BBC reporter finds a woman wrapped in a Saltire who says ” we don’t want a kind of Catalonia situation where we kinda stated it and people ended up in prison. It has to be legal it has to be all done by the book.”

    1. Do independence supporters really believe this kind of Britnat propaganda? What law is being broken and who is going to end up in prison on what charges? Just how many times does it have to be said Catalonia has a constitution that says independence is illegal and so is having an independence referendum. The UK has no such laws. And if the “book” is kept firmly closed – what then.

    2. Is this a BBC plant or just someone poorly informed?

    Another independence supporter interviewed says there is no shortcut to independence.

    So according to Reporting Scotland independence supporters are fine with Nicola Sturgeons strategy/plan. If Reporting Scotland are taking this line then we should be worried that they seem happy.

    Alyn Smith SNP MP says “I don’t want to hold an independence referendum I want to win it” – well maybe you shouldn’t have been asking for a mandate to hold one in multiple elections.
    Alyn Says he is fine with the plan. Well what the hell is it – pray tell. No one says what happens when Boris sticks two fingers up again to a sect 30 or changes the law to get rid of sect 30.

    On a positive note at least there is one trade union that is democratic – Unison – say they support Scotland’s right to choose its future.

    • Of course he is fine with it, a cushy number at Stirling now secured. I’m surprised he abandoned his colleagues at the EU well before the lights went out, after all those great words. Different priorities, I suppose.

  53. Cubby not everyone has a clue about the difference between us and Catalonia. In saying that the BBC are known to use plants or search for and “cherrypick” those that they interview to create even more myths and confusion.

    In fact I’m horrified at times by the total lack of understanding of the basics in many of the people that I meet, such as Lab, Tory and Libdems at Holyrood are controlled from London. When informed of that you get the, “You’re kidding”.

    Nicola Sturgeon didn’t rule out holding a consultative plebiscite yesterday either, Cubby, which seemed to please Joanna Cherry.

    Check this out. Interesting link. https://mobile.twitter.com/chrismccork/status/1223283864073854976

    • Petra, do they not buy the National newpaper. All these basics are covered in the paper.

      I agree Nicola Sturgeon did not specifically rule out a lot of alternative approaches but did not rule them in either. She certainly should never have given any credence to “illegal referendums”.

      • Buy the National? There’s around 120,000 SNP members and hundreds of thousands of pro-independence supporters overall. The National has a readership of less than 8,000. Pathetic in fact.

  54. Sturgeon has spoken and has sided with the enemy. Looks like the UK estabishment dirty tricks department has promised her the Salmond treatment if she dares to step out of line. Time now for Scotland to elect someone fearless and outspoken who’ll side with us.

    • “Sided with the enemy.” Sounds as though you’ve been brainwashed on one of those strange so-called pro-independence sites, Alan.

  55. “On a dark and fearful day we need fire to light a route out of the darkness, not managerialism.” – True, but may I suggest we know a fraction of what is going on behind the official facade to explain the approach. However downbeat the tone, frankly I’m amazed at the wee woman’s stamina, most would have buckled long before now…
    Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp’s article on the speech was sober and analytic, completely contrary to the overflowing frustrations of many, but then you get this perspective and wonder if we are all actually on the same page….
    https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/1223366082695716866
    Whether it was a gaffe or orchestrated to be one, Pete Wishart “consorting” with the huntin’ shootin’ fraternity in his constituency would barely raise an eyebrow at any other time, but the thread soon descended into a “they are on your side, haha” etc. exchange… But have to ask a fundamental question – What has all this to do with the objective of getting to independence ? Does Nicola Sturgeon the person or Pete Wishart really matter or is it the body of the kirk ?
    We are under assault by a well equipped army of individuals dedicated to the task of undermining and sapping support for Indy2 if not SNP… We stand or fall by allowing ourselves to be manipulated into a bitching contest, and frankly we’ve come to far to allow ourselves to be played….
    It’s time to hold the line and shut off from the chinese whispers, this is already a dirty war, and there is much worse to come….

    • The only problem I see with that picture is that there is a bottle of champagne still unopened.😂😂😂😂😂😂

  56. I think the roles of First Minister should be held by a different person in the SNP from a MINISTER FOR INDEPENDENCE. Perhaps it is too much to ask one person to run the Scottish Gov, run the SNP and plan for and gain Scottish independence.

    If Nicola Sturgeon continued as First Minister but has no responsibilities for delivering independence it immediately gets rid of the get on with the day job attack.

    A new person takes up responsibility for delivering independence – a Minister for Independence with all the powers within the SNP needed to deliver independence. This would not be Mike Russells position.

    I welcome any thoughts ( well not undeadshaun thoughts obviously) critical or otherwise as I am not an SNP member.

  57. Vote against it. Join the SNP, donate and campaign. Vote out all the Tory/unionists. It is quite simple. Vote them out. There will be no unionist opposition. They will be gone. Then have another IndyRef.

    Johnston will be gone. All politicians who oppose IndyRef and Independence do not last very long. Who wants the poison chalice?

    The Tories are mucking up big time. Deja Vu. They had to get rid of Thatcher for closer ties with Europe. To improve the economy. They do not have a clue what they are doing. Except mucking up the economy. Killing off people. Building a ghost train. People will soon cotton on to their absolute mess. Another 30 years into oblivion. Do not vote for them.

    Labour/LibDems have been voted out. Now vote out the Tories. Scotland will be Independent. Get another to vote as well. The tide is turning. The demographics changing. Support for the SNP and Independence is increasing. Towards a better future. In or out of Europe. It is being Independent to chose that is important. Only a few years away. Totally achievable.

    Look how far Scotland has come since Devolution 2000. Only twenty years ago. Quite amazing. Look how close Independence has come. Even more because of Brexit. Totally within achievement.

    Just keep on voting for it. A better Scotland and a better world. Easily within the clasp. Friends everywhere in high places. People in Scotland just have to vote for it. The final push. The Tories into oblivion. All they deserve in any case.

    Why people are despondent? The tide is turning. To make Scotland and the world a better place. The Tories are mucking up big time. They do not have a clue. Never have so many been promoted above their capabilities. They are just delusional. People will soon find out.

  58. Before we get to a referendum on independence,the immediate battle is to determine who gets to decide on that.
    Westminster having a veto over this process is not allowing the people of Scotland the right to decide.
    They,of course,claim that the people of Scotland exercise this right through our shared sovereignty at Westminster.
    This is what has to be challenged.

  59. I get the feeling that my membership of the SNP is being taken for granted. Firstly the “Land” issue was kicked into the long grass, now this. I believe Nicola is being badly advised.

    • Hold your fire, Kenzie. Not until we can see the red rimmed whites of their desperate Brit Nat swivel eyes do we pounce; any day now.
      I watched Leonard make yet another arse of himself on Brewer’s Droop; yet Gordon gives him an easy ride, and somehow avoids the obvious question; “Why haven’t you resigned following the Labour GE disaster led by you?
      He won’t even back the only Scottish MP in the Deputy Leadership Election. He may be 30 years away from The People’s Republic, but still a Yorkshire Englishman at heart.
      Leader of ‘Scottish’ Labour? What a joke of a man.
      And Unison and GMB back a second independence referendum.
      Even his fellow Shop Stewards have deserted him.

      • Jumpy Leonard once again demonstrating he is completely out of his depth leading a political party. On the plus side he probably helped lose British Labour in Scotland some more supporters with that display.

        One MP in Scotland and Leonard 🤡 refused to back him for the Deputy Leader post down in London. 😂😂😂😂😂

        Leonard is in a difficult position. Very few people in Scotland know who he is but when he tries to raise his profile by appearing on the TV more people don’t rate him and he loses votes.

        So Labour please please leave him in place.

  60. C’mon, Scotland – you can do better than this.

    Your captain knocking on the ball over the try line and missing kickable penalties yesterday seem to be a metaphor for this unhealthy habit of ‘drowning so close to the bank’ as we say in Welsh. I know, us Welshies have an aptitude for in-fighting too, but we should have our eyes fixed on the prize and not resort to this sniping, undermining, bickering attitude. To use another Welsh expression in translation, ‘it’s all honey on the fingers’ of our opponents.

    So often we have taken inspiration from the obvious inevitable march towards independence by the Scots. Don’t let us down, now.

    Perhaps we can inspire you, too:

    https://nation.cymru/opinion/why-independence-will-release-wales-economic-potential-and-give-us-the-tools-to-eradicate-poverty/

    Tros Gymru / For Scotland.

  61. BBC Marr. Rabb as with most English Tories speaks aggressively and threateningly over Scotland rejoining the EU. Does not look on Scotland as a nation. Donald Tusk is empathetic towards us. Look how the EU supports Ireland, look how the britnats undermine and run down Scotland.

    What union appears best for the future of Scotland?

    • The EU of course because it is an actual Union. In all practical ways the UK is an England/Westminster dictatorship not a Union.

  62. Pingback: Scottish Independence is Within our Grasp if we Heed the Lesson of Toom Tabard - Craig Murray

  63. Cubby

    That suggestion about a “minister for independence” sounds to me, on the face of it at least, like potentially a very good idea so long as of course the position was occupied by someone with the power to persuade as well as being a political bruiser totally devoid of any fear or respect for WM or Johnson. You’re right about NS having 3 jobs and it probably is too much.

    Would be good if the idea gained some traction.

    • Thanks JMD for your thoughts. I think it is also difficult to be a stable steady First Minister governing for all and dealing with the day to day issues of the day job and at the same time be an inspirational independence ” bruiser”.

      I think our FM is starting to look a bit tired and it is time others stepped up to the plate to share the burden.

      It would be sad to lose Nicola Sturgeons obvious managerial abilities if she was to leave as FM. But would she share power? Most politicians like to garner and keep as much power as possible.

      • Sharing the burden?
        I think that is why there is a cabinet peopled with ministers each responsible for their own departments

          • “Our FM is beginning to look a bit tired.” Anyone surprised by that considering the number of enemies that she faces and with the latest stab in the back by some of her own so-called supporters? I’m surprised that she’s not being treated in hospital for extreme exhaustion and a broken heart.

            And who would you suggest could effectively take on her role, Cubby?

          • Petra, that is my point. Share the burden. I am not in the SNP so I do not know all the attributes of any people who could take on the independence role.

            I was just floating the point that there can not be many people who have had to run a devolved gov that has new areas of responsibilities to deliver on, run the party, and achieve independence at the same time. Quite a workload.

            If you think it is best for one person to do all these jobs fine just say so. I asked for thoughts.

  64. On different types of ‘Union’ …

    21. (of 21.)

    ‘I’m no’ a Union fan’

    Now I’m no’ a Union fan;
    I’m not fazed by its media scams
    I say what I think
    That the Union stinks:
    Yes, I’m no’ a Union fan.

    When you see ’em in the village hall
    Their Union Jacks unfurled an’ all
    And with a racist shout
    Of “Out, you Nats, out”,
    They rise to the Shankill’s call.

    Oh, you don’t get me part of your ‘Union’.
    You don’t get me part of your ‘Union’.
    You don’t get me part of your ‘Union’.
    Till the day I die, till the day I die.

    To the Union folk, I’m wise
    And to the lies of the BBC guys.
    And I don’t get fooled
    By Bojo’s rules
    ‘Cause I always read with open eyes.

    And I always get my way
    And be sure to win the day.
    For when I show my card:
    “For indy – and hard!”
    This is what I say.

    Oh, you don’t get me part of your ‘Union’.
    You don’t get me part of your ‘Union’.
    You don’t get me part of your ‘Union’.
    Till the day I die, till the day I die.

    Afore the Union did appear
    My life was perfectly clear.
    Now, I’ll get me some power
    During ev’ry waking hour
    To get indy by end of the year

    So, c’mon all ye Yessing folk;
    Let’s throw off the ‘Union”s yoke:
    Make our Scotland respire
    And this ‘Union’ expire.
    And leave Boris on his Brexit to choke!

    Oh, you don’t get me part of your ‘Union’.
    You don’t get me part of your ‘Union’.
    You don’t get me part of your ‘Union’.
    Till the day I die, till the day I die.

    [With acknowledgements]

    __________

    Songs for the New Politics
    2013-2020

  65. Tusk sending out a great message this morning to Nicola Sturgeon and independence supporting Scots …

    ”Scotland would be welcomed enthusiastically by the European Union if it won independence from the rest of the UK”, according to Donald Tusk.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-scotland-eu-independent-donald-tusk-dominic-raab-indyref2-a9313336.html

    and even Craig Murray has something positive to say about Nicola Sturgeon’s plan. Wonders will never cease.

    ..”The dynamic of a new constitutional body whose members feel they command legitimacy, should not be underestimated. The convening of this body will be a real constitutional innovation. We need to make sure, that like that French National Assembly, they can clearly hear a huge mob outside their windows, demanding radical and speedy change.”

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/02/scottish-independence-is-within-our-grasp-if-we-heed-the-lesson-of-toom-tabard/

    • Donald Tusk’s comments

      On Sunday Politics the BBC and Brewer showing their bias, as ever, when Brewer says “I guess technically it doesn’t really matter what he thinks now…..”

      I don’t remember them taking the same line in 2014 when Barrusso (I think that’s how it is spelt) was an ex official and he was given a long interview platform to tell Scotland that Spain would not allow an independent Scotland to join the EU.
      We will never know how many EU citizens voted no because of the lies the BBC allowed him to spout.

      • “”I don’t remember them [the EU] taking the same line in 2014 …””

        No because Mr Salmond had not laid the groundwork with the EU than Ms Sturgeon and her ministers have done since the 2016 EU referendum, and before.

        She has made sure that the EU ministers and officials know what the SNP is about and a better grasp of the independence issue so no longer have to rely on a biased media and UK Government ministers for their information.

        The trade hubs that the SG have set up in Brussels, Berlin and Paris have not only brought about a significant, and welcome, increase, in trade with the EU they ensure that Scotland has a permanent presence in some of the important capitals of Europe. The increase in trade is important for our current economic situation but also for independence. The strength of Scotland’s economy is important in building confidence ahead of independence but also ensuring that the economy will be resilient enough to weather the hit that will surely come in the transition to independence.

        A lot of hard work and strategic planning went into that as indeed with Ms Sturgeon’s foreign trips, and those of her ministers, to our non-EU neighbours. Setting up networks and contacts that will stand Scotland in good stead now and as it moves to independence. Yet I see so many comments by people along the lines of ‘the SNP/SG have not done anything since the EU referendum!

        • Spot on Legerwood. I’m personally sick and tired reading that Nicola Sturgeon has done nothing for us since 2014. Worse still that she should be replaced, FGS. Replaced by whom I ask? There’s no one at Holyrood to fit the bill and SNP MPs at Westminster don’t have the knowledge that she has in covering the “day job” and keeping the London controlled Holyrood politicians at bay. Some people have mentioned Joanna Cherry and yes she’s great when it comes to her field of expertise but let’s not forget that she was left stuttering and stammering when a question was put to her about our currency. Nicola Sturgeon is never left lost for words and her response is always prompt, honest and factual.

          Anyway I reckon that the BritNats are doing an excellent job when it comes to achieving their number one aim and that is in bringing down the greatest threat to them and their Union. Trying to undermine Nicola Sturgeon’s credibility aided and abetted by a bunch of gullible numpties and of course those who have a more sinister axe to grind.

          • Nicola Sturgeon is one of the best leaders in the EU never mind the UK. It is just hard lines that Scots when they had some of the best football clubs in Europe, and World champion boxers back in the 70’s/80’s, it was never the case that we were the best, no it was always because the rest were going through a bad spell. We never appreciate what we have got or what we have achieved, think of what Scotland has gave the World with inventions alone, and we still can’t convince the NO people that we would be capable of running the country.

        • Legerwood

          You misinterpret my words. You insert ( The EU ) after them. I didn’t say the EU you have wrongly assumed who I was referring to . Them is the BBC.

          I repeat THEM is the BBC not the EU. I was referring to the BBC not saying Barrussos views were not that important due to him being an ex official as Brewer just did with Tusk.

          I agree with the rest of your post.

          • Apologies, inserting EU was my error – ‘them’ was yours – but I stand by everything else I wrote.

  66. Everyone knows Independence is coming soon. Just go out and vote for it. Instead of the constant negativity. Vote the unionists out. Quite achievable.

    Look how far Scotland has come since Devolution. Only 20 years ago. It just gets better and better. Support for the SNP and Independence rising. Just go out and do it. Get others out as well.

    The crapping and moaning is just pathetic.

  67. Nicola Sturgeon wouldn’t be forgiven at all if we lost what may be our last chance to get our Independence, Ben, she would be absolutely crucified by the Scots. We may have had 62% of Scots vote to remain in the EU, the 62% that she fought for to remain in the EU, but some of that 62% seemingly don’t support Independence which is our only route now to getting access to the EU again.

    Let’s not forget either that in comparison to Ireland she’s led us to this point within a few short years (not decades) without blood being spilled and there’s no saying that we won’t get our Independence this year (or next year) especially if a legal route is taken, which she hasn’t ruled out.

    51% registering their support in one poll of 1000 people is far from ideal especially as we have a court case looming that could see support dropping or plummeting (or rising of course) in the very near future. When the Scots see the fishers and farmers being shafted and lies exposed about the Irish borders, etc, etc that should will surely help our cause too. I reckon that we’re heading in the right direction and being led by the right person. Looking to dissolve the Union at this time would lead to riots on our streets, Irish like, and numerous legal challenges, and changing leaders makes no sense as who exactly could effectively fill Nicola Sturgeon’s role? Your politicians wouldn’t push for reunification of Ireland based on around 50% support, so why would we want to do so?

  68. If Ireland had waited (-5years) there would have been no Partition. Partition 1923. Universal Suffrage 1928. Ireland could have voted for Home Rule/Independence through the Ballot Box.

    Instead of jumping the gun. Nearly100 years of bloodshed and a ruined economy in part of it, NI. Loyalist, bigots, racists and misogynists breaking the Law aided by Westminster unionists. Black balling people. Illegally. People denied the vote. They can now vote for it. Demographic changes.

    An entirely different situation but Scotland can vote for it through the Ballot Box. Better to not jump the gun but get through it. Until it is finally done through the Ballot Box. It is totally feasible. People in Scotland will vote for it. Independence in the EU.

    The Tories will muck up again. Deja vu. They always do. The demographic changes will ensure it is won.

  69. They were looking for 300,000 signatures on here. It’s now pushing over 520,000 with many people signing up since Friday. That doesn’t come across to me as indicating that Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t have support.

    I would also reckon that many of the people, online, talking about giving up their membership aren’t actually independence supporters at all. Just BritNats that want to divide us and undermine our cause.

    http://www.yes.scot/#petition-form

    • of course FM Nicola Sturgeon has support – people credit her with what she has done for Scotland and recognise her abilities and statesmanship.

      But since many in the Independence movement (how many? have we got a %?) also see what she has not achieved, they are questioning her cautious approach.

      They have every right to do so and propose feasible alternatives as and when they are developed

    • In what way are we in “a bad position”,?

      Scotland is in a bad position because it’s now out of the EU.
      Think of all the forthcoming losses of citizenship rights, FOM,academic study and research programmes, ease of trade etc in 2021.

      Unless Scotland’s in a position to get back in quickly before too much UK-EU divergence, re-entry may not be all that easy or quick, despite the goodwill from other EU countries.

      Personally speaking, I would have liked the Scottish Government to have taken steps over the years since the brexit referendum to ensure Scotland stayed in (and I don’t mean trying to change brexit).

      But either it didn’t or wasn’t successful.

      • Taken from the link at 8:14am, Ben.

        Joanna Cherry:- ”Here is one expert take on the matter which argues that whilst the process of accession could take 4-5 years Scotland could sit in an Association agreement during that period in line with #EU rules & regulations.”

        • Petra we seem to be talking at cross-purposes. Of course Scotland is in a much worse position today than it was on 30th January.
          On the other hand, Ms Cherry is talking about how Scotland might, in the future, regain its lost status as member, hypothesizing some mechanisms. Since Scotland’s re-entry would be the first time a former member was re-admitted after being forced to leave against its will, other mechanisms and procedures may well be set up and come into play. As nothing official has ever been said by the EU to describe the process, I don’t know what will happen and nor do I suspect does Ms Cherry. But I do know Scotland is in a worse position today vis-a-vis the EU than it has been for the last 47 years and that’s despite the goodwill expressed by Tusk and others and despite the rising awareness within the EU and elsewhere of Scotland’s predicament.

      • Nicola Sturgeon did take steps from 2016 to ensure that Scotland remained in the EU, Ben.

        Experts also point out that little will change between now and December 2020.

        And of course LBJ could request an extension, on July 1st 2020, of the 11 month transition period.

        “To all intents and purposes, we remain an EU member [until January 2021]” Jill Rutter, Senior Research Fellow at the UK in a Changing Europe think tank, told Business Insider.”

        http://www.businessinsider.com/what-will-actually-change-now-uk-has-left-the-eu-brexit-day-2020-1?r=US&IR=T

        • the UK (and that includes Scotland) is no longer a member state, which changes things for MEPs, UK government representatives and British staffers at the EU parliament.

          Since we are in the Transition period negotiated by PM May, nothing will change for ordinary members of the public and businesses until Dec 2020, barring an extension.

          But even if Scotland manages to vote for Independence before the end of Transition, it will still need to undergo whatever re-entry procedures are set-up for re-admission.

          • That is NOT a problem, contrary to what WM would have you believe. This is the problem with this entire debate, the perception of ending one regime and entering another is shorter than reality. It will take decades to change the current alignment of the UK let alone Scotland, so any changes required to re-align for admission will be simple enough as we’ve been there before.
            Even the non-existent deficit of which the anti lobby make much will vaporise post-indy, there are only negatives if we insist they exist..

  70. You cannot hold this level of tension for much longer. In 2011/12 we entered the 2014 Campaign with less than 30 percent support for Independence. To suggest 50 percent is not enough to start this one is a lie. The SNP have some exceptional talent. However they have a cautious unelected little clique who do not listen to the members.

    We need a Referendum announcement soon and if required a legal challenge to do so.

  71. We need to recognise that the people choose the referendum time and date in Scotland not any government north or south, sorry had to say it again, but we need to emphasis this to everyone, I am not against the snp, in fact I personally think making the choice to choose who governs us will help the snp.
    On the subject of land owners, shooting estates, Pete whisart etc, let me assure you all we all need eyes more wide open if we think mainly birds of prey and moors are being burnt,
    I for one know they kill foxes, deer, badgers, weasels,stoats, squirrels,crows, magpies, hedgehogs and your pet cats and dogs to name but a few, I have seen the gamekeepers follow the instructions of their bosses and thus dump these animals on the road so they are ran over by vehicles to look like a road accident, no one gets out and checks or does autopsies, the reason is a lot of these animals disturb shooting bird prey nests. But you will not have to worry about this soon as the elite are introducing wolfs, beavers, lynx and wild bears back into Scotland first as an experiment because we have less population per hectare, how is your Sunday walk going to be with your dog then or how save do you think your cat will be when you let it out, never mind your grandchildren, especially as at the moment they are shooting rabbits, birds, hares etc, what does anyone think these predators are going to hunt,
    Just suppose they attack sheep, lambs , cows, calf’s. You don’t need to worry as they intend to restrict farming in the future, and restrict your access to the countryside to by using designated areas for people.
    How do I know this, well i was married to a gamekeeper for 27 years, I divorced the killing machine and re married a gentle giant whom rescues animals instead, lovely Mr Cheyne.

    • Understand your sentiments regarding animal welfare and cruelty, but Scotland has a real problem with the number of wild deer presently – and any program of reforestation and wilding will be sorely challenged by the expanding deer numbers. Culling is a necessity – and it is arguable that the sporting estates carry out a valuable function in maintaining healthy and sustainable herd population. Game sports like deer stalking, trout and salmon fishing are an integral part of the Highland economy and identity. As distasteful as you may find it, I’m not sure a complete ban would be beneficial or desirable.

      Regarding your first sentence, I think you may be mistaken. Referenda can only be called by either Westminster or Holyrood.

  72. The immediate question is how do the sovereign people of Scotland express their wishes on the constitution?
    The sovereign union parliament claim that only they have the right to do so as Scots voted in 2014 to affirm that position.
    We need to affirm that the ultmate decision on that matter lies with Scots but how to do so is not clear at present.

  73. Bringiton your spot on, it is the people of Scotland that are sovereign, not Westminster or the devolved Scottish government, I have the same question running around in my head chasing its own tail.
    How do we do it, help the independence movement and not clash with the snp?

  74. I just looked this up. You know how the MSM and the Brexiters keep banging on about ‘the British people voted to leave the EU’
    Well, the UK population is currently 67,886,011 people, only 17 million of whom voted to leave the EU.
    That means that over 50, million did not, either by vote, or not, or too young, but will be criminally worse off for years to come, who are the vast majority of the British people’ vote to give up our status as European citizens.
    Similarly, over 2 million Scots, probably more than 3 million if we include Home Rule advocates, will not lie down and die as Jackson Carlaw Ruth Davidson, and that new Tory Ally Neil Findlay who tried to shout down Mike Russell as he listed the Tories’ abysmal record in English Health Education and Law and Order laugh their feckin’ heads off in Holyrood during the Indyref debate.
    I look forward to witnessing them being drummed out of office come the inevitable now, Independence vote.

    We are not going away, you Proudscotsbut Brit Nats. You may tolerate 500 odd English MPs ruling over you, because it pays well, but the vast majority of us shall tolerate it no longer.
    Our day is at hand. There is no stopping us now.
    I favour a Repatriation Grant for any who want to head South on I Day.

    Cheap at the price.

  75. At the end of the day, you have to remember that we lost in 2014. We need to win those who voted no. We need convince them that there is no future in being a hostage to fortune. The the parties of union are not prepared to fight for Scotland in the Union, but will fight and die on a hill for England’s right to impose Brexit on a nation that did not vote for it.

    We need to do this in the face of outright hostility. In the face of a mendacious and criminal government, led by a serial adulterer and pathological liar. In the face of a media that is so craven that is now nothing more than a PR firm for that very same criminal government.

    This was never going to be easy. We can’t magic up another set of voters who think the way we do. We have to fight against a biased media that will lie to our faces. To fight against English parties in Scotland that have the brass balls to claim they represent Scotland.

    But the other issue at hand is Brexit and the suicide pact that England is determined to go through with. We not like the SNP right now, but honestly is there another credible party that govern Scotland and keep our services safe? We can’t lose hope and let the forces of union get in Holyrood. They will utterly destroy everything we hold dear. For the tories – its in their nature. For labour and the lib-dems they will destroy Scotland out of spite. We need to keep going on. We need to keep on keeping the unionists out. We have to keep sending the message that they don’t have our support. That we reject the union. That we reject Britain and British values. Give them nothing.

    Let the tories know they are still hated. Let Labour know it has not been forgiven and let the Lib Dems know that we think they are a right bunch of backstabbing little fannies.

    Let the media know that they have lost our trust.
    Let the English Left know that they are on their own.
    Let Brexit Britain know that we don’t stand with the UK.

    Brexit? I intend to sit back and watch Britain fail. It is after all led by a man who has only ever failed.

  76. “Brexit? I intend to sit back and watch Britain fail. It is after all led by a man who has only ever failed.”

    But it won’t fail – at least not in the short term. The UK has left the EU and is unconstrained by the new finance regulations governing off-shore and economic policy direction. The UK government now has the ability to run a substantial fiscal deficit, which will create substantial private sector income and will be able to fund all its policy objectives. For sure there will be trading issues and essential supplies will be at risk – but the bankers have had their way and their support for Boris and the conservative party is absolute.

    The government has the ability to create money out of thin air and does so regularly. Not all is spent wisely or transparently. Thank goodness the banks can keep it hidden.

    It will fail eventually, but not quite in the way you imagined.

  77. In order to regain our independence we need the support of a substantial majority of Scots. That day is coming. We have reached the breakthrough point despite being subjected to the most appalling propaganda. A people who have experienced the fear and low esteem caused by generations of abuse by narcissistic Brits are painfully and gradually breaking out. None of the negativity of a handful of people here and elsewhere, who claim to have been supporters of independence, will change it. On the contrary, their clamour will just contribute to the impetus that continues to push us further forward.

    As to Nicola Sturgeon being a betrayer -nah. Does that mean I am a cheerleader for her – nah. She is just a human being doing her best and she has done a lot of good work in hugely difficult circumstances. Is she imperfect – of course she is. Can we succeed with an imperfect leader? Of course we can and we will. The common five eighths that we need to win understand that nobody is perfect and will gradually fall in behind her, the more so if they think she is being attacked unfairly. Those who think they have all the answers have a role to play but as ideas people, not leaders.

  78. Don’t you think that it will be seen to be failing, as this year goes on, Mark? The latest news, today, on the UK/EU fisheries deal will already have some people questioning why they were ever duped into believing the lying, Tory buffoons.

    And Richard Murphy’s take on it:-

    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/02/02/its-the-unknown-unknowns-that-will-do-for-johnson/

    And as of last week, it looks as though he’s already reneging on taking care of the ”red wall area.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jan/25/former-red-wall-areas-could-lose-millions-in-council-funding-review

  79. An interesting article from Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp. Check out his Believe in Scotland site and consider buying his booklet Scotland the Brief. Both chockablock with extremely helpful facts.

    ..I did not expect the FM to make Johnson say NO to a specific date but rather predicted an ultimatum to agree to a referendum with a later date of Autumn 2020. This means that she can have another bite of the cherry later on in the year, by demanding a specific date when polls show support for independence rising following the break down of the trade deal negotiations with the EU.”..

    http://www.businessforscotland.com/nicola-sturgeons-referendum-announcement-tactics-explained/

  80. It’s time for everyone to move on and consider if they want Scotland to be independent or not. If not fair enough, however if you do let’s start doing something constructive. Do something to ensure that we see a rise in support. There’s so many things that we can do that don’t even necessitate leaving the comfort of our own homes.

    Boris Johnston, and no doubt Gove et al, are planning to start blitzing Scotland around St Valentine’s Day by spending £5 million (and the rest) to spout their propaganda by taking out adverts and using cinemas, TV, radio and digital platforms to get their message across.

    ..”The campaign is set to coincide with the publication of a review by Conservative peer Lord Dunlop into new ways to strengthen the Union, established by former Prime Minister Theresa May.”..

    https://politicshome.com/news/uk/politics/news/109561/boris-johnson-set-launch-%C2%A35m-anti-independence-ad-blitz-scotland

    The BritNats have further billions at their disposal. Money that the SNP don’t have. The SNP? That’s the only political party capable of getting us our Independence, like it or not. They are planning to send out their independence prospectus to every household in Scotland (2.5 million). New campaigning material will also be available at their yes.scot site. Get behind them and join the party and / or donate.

    We keep mumping and moaning about the biased MSM, so what about taking out a subscription for the National, the only newspaper that supports independence, or buying it on a daily basis (if you can afford to do so)?

    No sign of the WBB being sent out to a million homes either! What’s holding that up?

    How many people are supporting Broadcasting Scotland? If not what about considering doing so?

    http://www.broadcastingscotland.scot/

    I’ve already mentioned Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp’s site and of course let’s all continue to support WGD’s and the Indyref2 sites.

    And of course there are many other sites that we can support and things that we can do. So let’s just get on with it. Let’s do it. If we can get support to rise who’s to say that we won’t see us holding Indyref2 this year?

  81. James Kelly has released the first findings of his poll. 52% to 48% for Yes, 16-17 year olds were polled, James yet to confirm for sure if EU nationals were. Between the three polls, it averages out at 51% to 49% for Yes. Sensationally, it also says all pro-Indy parties to take 57% of seats in the next Holyrood election. All the more reason for Sturgeon to drop this stubborn shite with the Section 30 and make Holyrood 2019 a proxy vote on Indy.

  82. New Panelbase poll says 52% yes. That’s three polls in a row now with Yes over the 50% mark.

    35% of those who voted Labour in Dec 2019 GE say they would Yes for independence, 11% don’t know and the rest Britnats. Bit of a problem there for Jumpy man Leonard.

    Any Brexit reality is still to hit the polls.

    • It’s moving in the right direction, folks, however I wonder how the stats will stand when the Court Case comes rolling around? We could lose votes then again I was talking to an elderly couple, in their late eighties/early nineties, about this yesterday. They normally support the Labour party, don’t read the National, lol, and don’t have a computer and they said, ”something stinks about this.” I asked if they would support independence, pointed out that at least 40% of Labour supporters do and that independence could culminate in a rebirth of their party. The wifie said, ”we’re thinking about it.” Still thinking about it? What can you say? Maybe moving in the right direction?

      • Rationally the court case shouldn’t affect people’s thoughts on Scottish independence but people do not always think or act rationally.

        • And of course the MSM will try to manipulate people by using their usual propaganda tactics, such as lying by omission. A wee cut here and a wee cut there. The individual in question made to look like Jack the Ripper, lol. We can all see it coming.

  83. Typical Times Tripe.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/all-britons-should-get-a-vote-in-a-new-scots-referendum-p2s80zqdw?shareToken=f49091e1be60d8c5d2a3e042fa98d1a5

    Compare and contrast with the ‘WRITTEN STATEMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM’ on Kosova. Craig Murray of course quotes this often, however he seemingly has no concerns about calling it a day, without holding a referendum to establish the percentage of sovereign Scots that would actually support independence. A recipe for disaster, imo.

    However Westminster has made it’s stance clear on the Kosova case, so if they think that we’ll be daft enough to allow the citizens of a foreign country, the one that we want to get shot of, to decide our fate they’ve got another think coming.

    ………………..

    ..”5.5. Consistent with this general approach, international law has not treated the legality of
    the act of secession under the internal law of the predecessor State as determining the effect
    of that act on the international plane. In most cases of secession, of course, the predecessor
    State‟s law will not have been complied with: that is true almost as a matter of definition.2

    ”5.6 Nor is compliance with the law of the predecessor State a condition for the declaration
    of independence to be recognised by third States, if other conditions for recognition are
    fulfilled. The conditions do not include compliance with the internal legal requirements of
    the predecessor State. Otherwise the international legality of a secession would be predetermined by the very system of internal law called in question by the circumstances in
    which the secession is occurring.”..

    https://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-related/141/15638.pdf

    • Petra, You got that description of the Times article correct – utter tripe. I would have thought the Sun would be embarrassed to publish that never mind the Times. Newspapers – total pish.

      He argues that because Scotland leaving the UK union will affect England Wales N.Ireland everyone should have a vote. I bet he didn’t argue the other 27 EU nations should get a vote in the EU ref in 2016.

      The UK is sounding like a prison every day that goes by.

      It shows that they know they will lose a fair and honest referendum therefore they will not let that happen if they can help it.

      • ”I bet he didn’t argue the other 27 EU nations should get a vote in the EU ref in 2016.”

        Ha ha ha! Can you imagine what people worldwide would think of the contents of that article, Cubby? That they’re bl**dywell nuts. They’ll stop at nothing to win this battle or rather cling onto our wealth and their wee nuke pad at Faslane. Pathetic.

  84. Can’t wait to see what else is going on now.

    James Kelly:- ”There are several more questions to come from the Panelbase poll, and some of the results are pretty incredible. I had fairly modest expectations about one of the questions in particular, and my jaw dropped to the floor when I saw the outcome this morning. The remaining results will be released gradually over the coming days – if you’d like to be the first to know about them, you can follow me on Twitter HERE

  85. Hello Again Ginger,

    Take your time but when you eventually read this here’s a couple of observations for going forward. Don’t know how practical they would be but they seem sensible to me.
    It’s been very stimulating and enlightening following the conversation and debate that has been allowed to happen naturally while your humans have had their eye on other things.

    My thoughts on the content, thrust and parry of that debate are not of concern at the moment.
    What I see as the current problem is following the debate.
    Once the flow reaches a certain point (for simplicity saw 40 items) which can happen very quickly, it becomes awkward to follow. Simply because of the extent of the content. Now I have no wish to limit the natural flow of that content.
    What I would suggest is a method of easily finding where you leave off when you return to the developing thread.
    Now I know that one of your humans is a very accomplished scribe amongst other things. And I believe that your other human dabbles a bit in I.T. or computing in some manner.
    So between them it could be possible to come up with a system that automatically assigns a number or code to each contribution to the thread which would be easily searchable from the beginning of the debate.
    So that I at least would have a simple route back to where I left the discussion after I have completed whatever task it was that the boss suggested would be better to my continued health. That sitting with my nose glued to that bloody laptop/phone.

    Instead of scrolling up and down like a demented rock ape. On the subject of rock apes how long before LBJ……….nope stay on topic. We’ll get back to that later perhaps.

    Have a think about it and maybe have a chat with both your humans when they get back.

    Of course after they have done enough crawling, and sucking up, that you forgive them for buggering off and leaving you behind in the first place.

    Awe the Best

    Tha am post-d seo (agus faidhle neo ceanglan còmhla ris) dhan neach neo luchd-ainmichte a-mhàin. Chan eil e ceadaichte a chleachdadh ann an dòigh sam bith, a’ toirt a-steach còraichean, foillseachadh neo sgaoileadh, gun chead. Ma ‘s e is gun d’fhuair sibh seo le gun fhiosd’, bu choir cur às dhan phost-d agus lethbhreac sam bith air an t-siostam agaibh, leig fios chun neach a sgaoil am post-d gun dàil.

  86. Mark, no wool is verbally pulled over my eyes when talking about shooting estates, the elite have been shooting animals in Scotland since guns were invented, even queen Victoria can be recorded as going on shoots for sport. And killing deer then having them carried down the hills on Shetland ponies, doesn’t seemed to have culled the over populated deer, Forestry. Commission also used to culled the deer, and lots of people next door to wherever I have lived are employed to this day to shoot and kill, anything that moves, not just deer, my ex used to go out lamping on a regular basis for farmers,, the same man that stabbed a seagull to death with his knife, so he could see how long it took to die. when I was first married to him he would ask me to go check the snares he had set, while he was at work, a wide variety of animals were in these snares and they suffered slow deaths or I had to finish killing them as they had tried noring their own limbs of to escape. I am country born and bred, and used to the realities of the country, but I will never get used to the elite killing for fun, it is like a sickness that runs deep in their veins. It’s a mindset that will be hard to change,
    And so do I believe they are going to introduce predators to Scotland to keep the deer population down, NO its more likely that in years to come they will be able to go on a wild safari in their own back yard.
    I already know of a few supposed escaped animals that are in the wild in Scotland,
    SCOTLAND is always the place to start an experiment, think poll tax or the Darien scheme, or the vow, England’s government has always thought that the Scottish people were to stupid to notice .

  87. Just saw a retweet from Derek Bateman. Yon labour now say the reason we vote SNP, is we had a wee falling out with Labour.

    This from the Nandy lady.

    Yes. This is what labour thinks of you Scotland.

  88. I think it is a new era for Labour politicians from England. Bash Scotland and the SNP as they think it goes done well with their supporters in England.

    British Labour in Scotland – the most treacherous Party to ever pitch up in Scotland

    • Maciver is only building on the disinformation which preceded (Brexit) to “muddy the waters” over Indy and SNP policy… What form borders take or what checks are carried out are consequences which flow from a decision Scots may make much later on post-independence, but crucially Maciver avoids the greater problem, what agreement is reached with rUK in executing them.
      It has all the hallmarks of the 2014 discussions, misleading, unhelpful, and deliberately confusing…

  89. Check out the Indyref2 site today. No nastiness or negativity, just 40 plus links (plus a blether section) bringing us up to date with the latest news. This is the type of site that genuine independence followers should be supporting as some others disintegrate into absolute chaos; exuding bitterness and divisiveness unconducive, imo, to attracting soft No’s to the independence cause.

    https://indyref2.space/forum/topic/links-tuesday-4-february-2020/#postid-1102

  90. Any monies Scotland would lose with trade (nothing). It would go to other markets. Premium goods. The monies Scotland would save out of the UK more than makes up for it. £20Billion. Scotland would gain, No illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion,

    £3Billion tax evasion, £1Billion Trident/Defence. Scotland cannot borrow £5Billion to invest in the economy. Illegal wars £Billions. Scotland paying £Billions on loan repayments not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Westminster financial fraud and misuse of Scottish revenues. £20Billion.

    Scotland raises £63Billion in tax revenues. It could raise £80Billion. Same as Norway. Without Westminster chronic interference. The illegal Barnett Formula. Lang,Forsyth and Thatcher. Designed to illegally take £Billions. out of Scotland secretly and illegally. To ruin the Scottish economy and boost.London S/E for votes there.

    The unionists recognised they do not need votes in Scotland to win elections. So they do not care.

    Just vote out every unionist politician. Scotland will be Independent within five years. Why people are despondent when Independence is coming is a mystery,

  91. The IndyRef2 site is difficult to get on. Slightly difficult to navigate. Prof Robertson site is excellent. It is much easier to comment. A great alternative. Great articles.

    • Hi Ken it’s actually pretty straightforward. Sign in, click on forum and read the links (and reply) or go to “Blether” and have your say as you do on here.

  92. Can I throw a thought in here which is that we need to stop deriding and underestimating unionists and get them on our side? One way is to get rid of the idea that an independent Scotland needs to be left-wing. You don´t have to be a socialist to care about your fellow citizens and if someone is a “Tory” it does mean they are less Scottish than someone who is not.

    They also have views on bread and butter matters like the health service, education, tax levels, refuse collection and street cleaning that have nothing to do with whether Scotland is independent or not. I have never heard of a nationalist movement that has achieved its goal through ideology rather than through a shared feeling of nationhood.

    The majority of Scots voters are not necessarily socialists. Believe it or not, quite a lot of them are conservative with a small “c” – in political, social, cultural and religious matters.

    • Aye and you base your opinion on what exactly John ? If it’s on voting records you might want to revise your comments , the last time the Tory party had any support in Scotland was 1959 incidentally the year I started School 60 odd years ago, so much for your Conservative with a small ” c ” .

    • I hope it’s not who I think it might be. On the otherhand Leslie Riddoch has mentioned fronting another Independence Party, Chic.

      • Well when I read WOS was taking time out for a couple of months, supposedly so upset about the FMs speech, I did wonder if he was actually going to try and start up his party. Who knows – I don’t.

        • Cubby, Chic mac,and Petra
          I do know who it is but it’s not my place to say.
          What I can tell ye is it’s not the Rev and that they are not announcing for a few weeks yet….
          They are standing on the list only and are looking to get the British Party’s reduced!

          • You rotting spoilsport Liz. This is just like being at school – I know but I’m not telling😀😀😀😀😀.

            I know it’s Alex Salmond👍🏽👍🏽 Only joking folks.

            So why did the man from Wings get so upset? He surely says he’s held that opinion for a long time so why get so upset now. Can you answer that then Liz?

            Well the way the polls are going and the possibility of a new party on the list the Britnats could get a hell of a beating.

          • I’m no trying to be a spoil sport Cubby … Honest.
            Some friends of mine are involved and that’s how I know the little I do.
            It got out on the spider principle the other night and the speculation started about it being a Westminster plot,or the Rev, or fake news…
            Anyhoo I didn’t want that to start here…
            These are genuine decent people who have decided to do something about the lack of List seats for Indy…Independence is their sole motive..
            They are worried about the 2021 Holyrood elections!
            Will it take off?…. I don’t know but they are people you want to be in Holyrood , they come from the Yes movement themselves.
            I’ll certainly give them a hearing and if I don’t think it will damage Indy get behind them.
            Having said that….. I’d not be so quick to discount how far up Bawless Johnston’s nose Nicola is getting right now….she may just push him to do something rash and create that tipping point yet… We’ll see…

            As to the Rev…. I have no deal way of knowing….but creative people can’t stay in a virtual hamster wheel for very long and he’s been sayin for months there’s nothing different to write about….. Soooo..
            As long as he comes back when we are actually campaigning I’ll not complain…..And I know he will because as anybody who has spent any time on Wings,if they’re honest!
            Knows fine well, during the actual campaign is when The Wee Blue Book Two is to actually be published…… The man hasn’t lied to us yet!

          • Yer welcome Cubby 🙂
            I had a lot of waiting around today and he was right there…. You know what it’s like ye know ye shouldn’t but …. 🙂

          • Thanks for that Liz. Just happy to know it is a genuine indy. ploy and not AngloNat shenanigans.
            Can you say if they have significant backing/funding? OK if you can’t.

          • Ha Ha… If only Petra…
            As I said, I really don’t know much and the only other thing I could do was name “some” names…. But that’s no my place to do.
            Since it had got out that there was an application to register a new party I thought that it was best that I said something, so that we didn’t all get caught up going off on tangents that weren’t true, and to do so only on site’s that I’ve a bit of history with….. Mainly because no body anywhere else has any reason to believe me….especially since I’m being so cryptic about it.
            This patience stuff is bloody hard 🙂
            I’d love to set about debating the pros and cons of it,and read all the input from the other’s but I guess we’ll just have to wait… 🙂

  93. Question is Paul. While we wait for the 58% to become the majortriy , the UK Gov will encourage Commonwealth and UK citizens returning from abroad with no clue about devolution to make their home in Scotland thereby skewing elections in future elections.

  94. Astonished that the polls reported today only give a 52/48 margin in favour of independence. If you consider all that’s happened since 2014 – it’s a disappointingly insignificant shift. Even with the betrayal of the ‘vow’, Brexit, Boris, and the regular humiliation at Westminster – this is only a 4 point swing. Maybe we should make the indeyref2 a UK wide poll because the margin south of Hadrian’s for an independent Scotland is much higher than that on the north side.

    Why do you suppose that is?

      • Who knows? The English are miles ahead when it comes to self determination and independence and can’t quite understand why the Scots are too frightened to follow suit. The only people in these islands who wish to retain the constitutional status quo are Westminster politicians, the British Establishment, the City and around two million Scots.

        Dear God, why?

        • Mark if the English are so far ahead then all they have to do is instruct their MPs to immediately have a vote on ending the treaty of union. English MPs have the numbers to do this at any time. They do not have to ask for permission from Wales Scotland or N. Ireland. They do not need to have a referendum legal or not. Full independence for England is simple if they want it. Not so easy for the rest of us.

          This UK form of democracy was created 313 years ago and is far from fit for purpose. English MPs have always had the power to modernise Westminster and make it a proper union and a proper democracy. They choose not to.

          This union needs to end.

          • Try an take a step back and look from a different perspective. I’m a Fifer, but have lived in the US and rUK for the last 25 years and had all sorts of adventures. My day job was a chiropodist and if you are a people person, it’s a little like Alan Bennett’s ‘Talking Heads’ beyond the scalpel, blood and gore. And a different script every half hour or so.

            It’s a job you learn a lot about life and people – if you’ve time to listen and absorb. When you do, it’s a remarkable privilege. I’ve worked all over the UK in the last forty years and if I’m honest, I think it’s a real shame that the Union has to end this way – if it had to end at all. The vast majority of ordinary folk are remarkably similar. We all are fashioned from our backgrounds, parents and experiences in life, but no matter if you’re from Newtonmore or Newquay, we’re all the same. Sure there are extremists – and in these days of social media, they seem to have the loudest voice, but they are a minority in every community and country.

            The people in England wanted to regain their sovereignty. Fair play to them. They’ve achieved it. Scotland has to do the same. The overwhelming majority of my neighbours in England would want us to do so without any more fuss. What Boris or Westminster say is irrelevant – just like the EU – they are impotent if a country determines a different direction.

            If Scotland doesn’t soon rediscover its sense of pride and confidence, it deserves everything the Eton boys have planned…

          • Mark interesting post but does not explain why I am naive. Anyway forget it.

            The key difference you seem to miss is that the media unleashed relentless propaganda to convince people in England that the EU was baad very very baad and foreigners were baad very very baad. In Scotland the media unleash relentless propaganda that independence was baad very very baad and SNP were baad very very baad and in General Scots are too poor too wee and too stupid to be independent.

            Me thinks you have been away from Scotland too long. Love Fife by the way.

          • This “sovereignty” issue just does my head in. No civilised country, worldwide, has 100% sovereignty when it’s involved in trade deals (et al) with other countries. Taking it that the US and China feature highly in this respect with the UK now (Westminster) it’s high time that we dropped the pretence and burst their myths.

            Then as Westminster drives EU Nationals out they are replacing them with people from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and the Philipines. Highest rise in immigration from these countries since 2004. Just what the people of England voted for (NOT), as in their ignorant and deluded state they’ve dragged us out of the EU and into an endless debacle if we don’t get out of this Union, ASAP.

        • My point was that the ‘Scotland too wee, to poor, too stupid’ propaganda works to reduce support for indy in Scotland but increase it in England. So it obviously does not work so well in Scotland than it has in England.

          • Let’s hope then, Chic, that the vast majority of English people, who have been brainwashed by the MSM also, will be happy to see us go, as we most definitely will be doing in the very near future.

    • “Make Indyref2 a UK wide poll” did you come up with that idea yourself or do you read the Times?

      Just where do your facts come from that backs up ” the margin south of Hadrians for an independent Scotland is much higher than that on the north side”

      I didn’t know polling companies used Hadrians wall as some sort of demarcation line. Do they also use the Antonine one as well? Is that ditch along Wales used as well?

    • It’s the half a million English voters living in Scotland who always vote for mother England to keep its iron grip on Scotland

    • Petra,
      Strange too that the TV cameras were in the Today studio when she stated most emphatically that the SG were contracting the various venues earmarked for the conference yet nothing of that in her letter. I wonder if she did it as a favour to her bosses? SNPbaad.

      Roseanna Cunningham debunking it – just the Science Centre booked by the SGand it is on the other side of the river.

      • I don’t know what motivates her Legerwood (future career prospects?), but between one thing and another from what she’s said previously Nicola Sturgeon versus Boris Johnston = no competition.

        It’s also clear that Westminster is including Scottish policy and results in relation to climate change to “alter” their abysmal English performance hence its no wonder that LBJ wants to exclude Nicola Sturgeon from the conference. Shut her up to the point of potentially moving it to England (if the UN agrees!!).

        Sad to say, for him, that the UN and the 200 leaders worldwide attending (every country in the world?) actually know the score. He’s a bl**dy fraud as witnessed as he stood by David Attenborough yesterday. Clearly totally out of his depth. Richard Attenborough, by the way, not David as stated by Dominic Raab in the Commons yesterday. Yeh I know you couldn’t make it up. The UK’s being run by a cabal of right wing primary school level chancers. English schools I should add as my young relatives attending primary school in Scotland could teach them all a thing or two.

  95. Tory news manipulation over the conference , divert and distract assisted by bbc scotchland. Don’t talk about the 52% 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

  96. Sometimes you get the impression that their are a few determined independence supporters on the Scottish sites that try thinking from all angles and possibilities, inside and outside the box to determine how we can gain independence as quick and legal as possible, we all throw our ideas out there so the conversation is full and complete, some may be daft ideas, some smart, others are worth mulling over and expanding on, However in my heart I have doubts when conversations are given short shrift by others claiming there is only one link to independence, and that is whatever the snp are doing, before I am jumped upon for talking trecherious talk, let me enlighten all to a conversation I had two years ago with an ex labour supporter whom changed over to snp, and was talking at a snp surgery to speak with anyone whom came to talk about independence, being as the conversation got quite in-depth, we began to vary in our idea of sovereignty in Scotland, she was not interested in the sovereignty of the Scottish people, she was only interested in making the parliament in Scotland sovereign, I suggested that the sovereignty of the parliament would come via the legal sovereignty of the people, she was adamant that the parliament should hold the sovereignty, this is the position that the English parliament holds, when a parliament or king try’s to hold sovereignty above the people there is no place for democracy.
    This ex labour lady as far as I know, is quite forwardly supporting snp.while trying to re-arrange sovereignty for Scotland.
    I support most of what the snp does, as it governs well, but there is no doubt in my mind that to follow blindly and faithfully down a possible dead end gully, or one track solution, may not be wise, especially as there seems to be some in the snp who wish to hold authority over the people, rather than the people being sovereign. Scary thinking.

  97. Paragraphs please.

    Scotland will be Independent within five years. The demographics are changing. Support for the SNP and Independence is increasing. Some people should get used to it instead of constantly moaning and groaning. Have they nothing better to do. Instead of giving support and getting on with it. Like most people.

    Independence after 25 years of Devolution is really good going and quite achievable. It was unthinkable once. Now it is within touching distance. No bother.

    If Scotland gets better off so does the rest of the UK.

  98. Anyone got an opinion on Murray Footes new role in the SNP. Particularly SNP members. The VOW is one of my pet hates but reserving judgement on how he performs.

    I can say one thing his past unlike some people (not naming any names – see we can all have our secrets Liz😂😂😂) will not protect him from severe criticism from me.

  99. Something positive – Nandy didn’t think we had any right to have any say in the EU ref she is now saying we should have some say in a future Scottish independence ref.

    Aren’t these Britnats just so kind to us.

  100. Cubby Sorry for any bad spellings or lack of paragraphs, not to sure about those things, better explain my schooling,
    I went to school in the middle of the forestry commission wood on west coast of Scotland, it wasn’t really a school as most would think of, it was a corrugated iron shed with a stove, 15 children in it on a good day, eight of them my brothers & sisters, we walked 3 miles to get to school through woods an along sea shore same on way back home, no roads, we only saw a doctor in the summer time as he did his rounds in a canoe, I became three quarter deaf after having measles when I was eight years old, I was not diagnosed until I was thirty two years old, I used to be stood outside or in a corner for not paying attention at school,
    I have overcome many obstacles in my life time including extreme poverty and homelessness.
    I have no chips on my shoulder about my tough life, it has encouraged me to do alternative thinking and strengthened my resolve maybe more than most, to try things without qualifications, based on logical thinking, I learned to read at eleven years old and couldn’t stop reading after that, I have even became a cartoonist for two local newspapers,
    And I keep on thinking that all independence inspired people should not give up and each should allow for people to think in a different ways and no one should tell any one else there is only one way forward and only one way to think, let’s all think outside the box and maybe, just maybe somebody will have one of those great moments of enlightened thinking that pushes us all over the independence line. Lol

    • Thanks for posting James and more so for sharing with us. Great posts, yes great, although I don’t agree with some of what you have to say. Just different opinions, eh, so keep on posting.

      Time for some people to get real. Folks shouldn’t post on here if they lack in grammatical knowledge? What! FGS, I’ve heard it all now. Back off and get into attack mode when dealing with the real enemy, why don’t you?

    • James no need to apologise to me. It just makes it easier/more likely for people to read your posts if you insert a line break after your paragraph. Just me trying to assist.

      We all have different life stories to tell but the thing about Scottish independence is that we all want to make things better in the future. A better future for all who choose to live in Scotland.

      • Yeh I know it goes back Big T’s time Bob, but it’s still worth a read as there are more chickens heading home to that same roost, lol.

    • The chlorinated chickens are coming over to roost on English supermarket shelves, at cut down prices, driving English Farmers to bankruptcy and ruin.
      I am sitting back and watching this unfold. Coronavirus is a god send to Johnson and the Bullingdon Boys.
      The ‘La Peste’ level of hysteria and panic generated by the hacks, and Ranjers defeats, fill the columns of our Brit Nat Press and broadcasts.

      Despite being kicked out of Downing Street briefings, our ProudScotsBut MSM ‘chums’ are still filling their columns and airwaves with SNP Bad Brit Nat Propaganda.

      We are ‘warned’ that if Scotland remains in the EU, then there will be a ‘border’ with England, and we’ll lose all that juicy trade, 60% of our exports.
      Absoluter rubbish, of course, churned out by hacks who continue to insult our intelligence, and as a consequence, come across as blithering idiots or Unionist propagandists.

      Firstly, Scotland will be part of a 28 strong confederation European nations, a trading bloc of 505 million Europeans, negotiating with an England which is now an isolated ‘third country’ with not one single trade deal in place as I write, and likely heading off the Cliffs of Dover in a No Deal meltdown in December.

      Secondly, Scots, native born, or by choice, will have the same CTA as Ireland, and a similar position with regard to its border with England as N Ireland has, whatever that is.

      How Jackson Richard and Willie can get on their pins at Holyrood knowing that Scotland voted Remain, and in the wake of the December Brit Nat UK car crash, defend a Union that is dead, against the wishes of the people who voted for them.

      It takes a special kind of Imperial Brainwashing to persist in the notion that ‘the country’ is a political construct called the UK, and that the country of their birth or choice, Scotland, is a mere Region of Greater England.

      Johnson thinks that he can ban our FM from the Climate Change summit, in her own ‘country’, and that there will be a sea of Union Flags blowing in the stiff autumn breeze on the Clydeside, as he arrives in triumph to greet the world’s leaders.
      The man is obviously as complete a fool as those before him; Mountbatten, (Battenberg) Churchill, and Thatcher.

      There is no going back now. We shall seize our country back, and the sooner ‘international’ Socialists like Findlay, Lamont, and Murray accept this, the sooner they might stand a chance of having a political career after Independence Day.

      There is no ‘Tory’ Party now.
      It has morphed into a narrow fascist xenophobic gang, who will surely fail when Brexit blows up in their faces.

      We shall never go back into our colonial pen.
      The Union is dead.
      Laugh your heads off at that Carlaw Tomkins Fraser and, look who’s popped up again, Supermom Davidson.

  101. Westminster is the government of a hostile foreign entity to me. The SNP presence there is an irrelevance. The SNP need to concentrate on Scotland, Independence and Land Reform (whatever happened to Land Reform?).

  102. “In last month’s general election, the SNP won 48 of the 59 Scottish seats in the House of Commons. Do you believe this result gives the SNP a mandate from the Scottish people to hold a second independence referendum?

    Yes 48%
    No 42%”

    “When Scotland voted against independence in the 2014 referendum, it was not known that Britain would leave the EU a few years later. Do you think Brexit is a big enough change of circumstances to justify holding a second independence referendum?

    Yes 52%
    No 41%”

    http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/02/scot-goes-pop-panelbase-poll-by.html

    • James’s more interesting observation is excluding the don’t knows, producing respectively
      Yes 53%, No 47%
      and
      Yes 56%, No 44%

  103. The Tories will muck up big time. They always do.

    Support for SNP and Independence is rising. No wonder. They are doing a great job. Absolutely brilliant in the circumstances. Scotland will be Independent within five years. There is no doubt. Everyone knows it,

    The demographic changes. Increased by 1% to 2% a year. Only 20 to 25 years from Devolution. It was once unthinkable. Now it is totally possible for achievement. Totally feasible. The best time to have an IndyRef is when it can be won.

    If the Irish had waited -5years. There would never have been Partition. Partition 1923. Universal Suffrage 1928.

    The Irish could have voted for Home Rule/Independence. Instead of nearly 100 years of bloodshed and corruption in parts NI for unionist votes at Westminster. Backed up by the Westminster Gov. People denied the vote. Demographic changes. The people can vote to reunite. Sinn Fien support increasing through the Ballot Box.

    Scotland has always gone through the Ballot Box because it can. Everyone should do their best and vote out all unionist politicians. There will be no opposition. The Tories will go into oblivion once again.

    500 deaths in China from a virus. 1.3Billion population.

    120,000 deaths from austerity in the rest of the UK, pop 60million. There is hardly a report.

    Cameron bodyguard leaves gun in plane toilet. The taxpayers are still paying for it. HS2 and Hickley Point a total waste of monies. £Billions wasted. People are dying because of austerity.

    Westminster cuts of funding for essential services. Cuts to NHS, Education and Welfare. Damaging the economy. ConDems elected to protect NHS/Education cut them.

    Brexit the total catastrophe. The Tories total shambles. They could not make a bigger mess. They will be be voted out.

  104. Scotland has a ‘right to roam’. The Scottish Gov has bought back more land than was taken. Still on going. Scotland was depopulated by Westminster economic policies.

    London S/E totally congested, Scotland not densely populated. The North/South divide. Revenues and resources illegally and secretly taken from Scotland to fund London S/E. Scotland population had remained unchanged since 1900. 5 million. Dipped in the 1950’s. War dead? Until Devolution 2000. The population increase to 5.2million. All countries need fresh blood. To dilute the gene pool. DNA. Illness etc.

    The world population will peak and fall. The underlying tread in Europe is a falling population, without migration. The migration crisis in Europe is caused by the UK/US and France illegal wars. Bombing the Middle East to bits and supporting corrupt regimes, illegally. Displacing people. Against International Law.

    The European countries are paying for it. The (UK) EU contribution does not even cover it. £12Billion. Sorting out the mess and destruction of displaced people. Another Westminster catastrophe.

    Tax revenues raised in the UK £661Billion. £40Billion (approx) spent on Defence. Trident and redundant weaponry. A total overspend. It would be better spent in reconstruction reducing poverty in the world.

    Westminster policies depopulated Scotland. The Clearances. People emigrated. Higher unemployment. Thatcher. Scotland has a 40 million diaspora,

    Britain has 5 million migrants. 5 million people from Britain work around the world. Swings and roundabouts.

  105. I’ve just heard Laura Kuensberg, on Politics Live, say that Nicola Sturgeon has stated that Indyref2 will not be held this year. And that 60% support has been used as the bar. Lying again?

    • My approach with regards to propagandist Britnats like Kuensberg is to assume she is lying until I see evidence from another source that says otherwise.

    • Petra
      The 60% figure was a BBC figure which was then taken up by the press back in 2015 I think.

      Ms sturgeon had just addressed an SNP conference – her first since becoming leader lf I remember correctly . I read the speech shortly after she made it. She did not mention any figure. Imagine my surprise that evening when Reporting Scotland said that they ‘understood from sources that a consistent 60% support in polls would be required’.

      That story has been recycled ever since despite the fact that the reason for indyref 2 has been and continues to be the material change caused by Brexit. That has been the case since she set out the need for Indyref2 in her speech in Bute House in March 2017.

      • Further to the 60% business, Ms Sturgeon’s speech and MSM spin.

        From Nicola Sturgeon’s speech to Conference 15th October 2015

        “”We believe that Scotland should be independent – we always have and we always will.
        As I said as our conference opened, the time to propose another referendum will be when there is clear evidence that opinion has changed and that independence has become the choice of a majority of people in Scotland.
        For us, as a party, that makes the challenge clear.
        If we want Scotland to be independent – and we most certainly do – then we’ve got work to do.
        There are no shortcuts.
        We must build the case and make it stronger. Convince those we didn’t convince last year.
        And persuade a majority of Scots of what we already know to be true.
        Independence is the best future for Scotland.
        Friends.
        Independence matters and we will never waver in our commitment to it.
        But what we say about jobs, schools and hospitals matters just as much to people across Scotland.””

        https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2015/10/17/nicola-sturgeon-s-2015-conference-speech-in-full

        From the Scotsman 18th October 2015

        “”The SNP will not seek another Scottish independence referendum until polls consistently show more than 60% of the public would vote to leave the UK, it has been claimed.
        First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has been playing down the prospect of an imminent re-run of last year’s ballot – which saw a 55%-45% victory for the unionists.
        ‘There really isn’t much point in the SNP holding a referendum until it’s clear that there is a majority’
        JOHN CURTICE
        She has suggested that a new vote could be triggered if the coming in/out referendum sees Britain exit the EU in defiance of Scottish wishes.
        But senior SNP sources are said to have told BBC Radio 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics that they have also set a “test” of polls showing at least 60% support for independence for more than a year.””

        https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-60-support-needed-before-next-independence-referendum-1-3920508

        • Indeed, Legerwood.
          Kuennsberg was doing her best to keep the lie going. NS has not ruled out a plebiscite this year. 60% is a fiction. The Tory chap on the panel regurgitated the ‘once in a lifetime’ nonsense.
          Kuennsberg is an obedient Brit Nat Apologist and Union Lass through and through That’s what gets you to the top in London.
          ProudScotsBut who sell Scotland short for money.
          Andrew Mar let John McDonnell lie unchallenged last Sunday when he declared the ‘the SNP’ were implementing Tory austerity cuts in Scotland.
          Bedroom Tax, Rape Clause, Council House Sales, prescription charges, and so on.
          Andrew Marr, you are a disgrace.
          How can Scots sell their souls for cash like this?
          Apparently, very easily.
          Kuennsberg will be joining Team Boris very soon now.

          • Jo Coburn must rank as one of the most disgusting of all BBC political presenters, Jack. She just sits back and let’s them all spew one lie after another and interrupts / talks over SNP politicians. She even had the brass neck today to tell Alison Thewliss that her question was about the SNHS when AT managed to say (get a word in) that the SNHS was the best performing in the UK. Jo Coburn, “Ah but, you’ve missed targets.” The sooner we get shot of this lot the better and with Independence we’ll all be having our say if we the slightest sign of propaganda being spouted by our media.

          • On the day when the headlines are full of the criminal negligence in England where 800 women were butchered by a English NHS/Private Surgeon Coburn attempts to slag off Scotland’s Health Service.
            She is a nasty piece of work right enough.
            She hates Scotland and our drive to Self Determination. The evil spawn of Andra Neil of course.

            They almost spit out their animosity against Scotland, don’t they.
            Little England imperialists at their worst.

          • Jack, none of these people really see themselves as Scottish. They are British. In their minds being Scottish is beneath them. Self I’ding themselves as British means in their minds they are almost part of the superior race of England. They will lie, cheat and run down Scotland for the slightest bit of self advancement. These are people who wish they had been born south of the border.

        • Thanks for posting data that highlights the starting point of what’s now become another case of Westminster / BBC Chinese whispers, Legerwood. I’ve also just remembered that not only did Ms Kuensberg spout 60% being used as the bar, but that polling results should show 60% support consistently for 6 months. Great how they just make it up as they go along!

          And amazing, eh, to think that we’ve all been dragged out of the EU based on 52% of UK votes. The percentage that our latest poll is standing at right now. That set the precedent, imo, and what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

          Chic MacGregor also posted data on here to the effect that shortly after the Brexit “win” numerous polls consistently demonstrated that many people had changed their minds and that remain was now in the lead. These polling results were suppressed by the MSM (plus Mr Curtice) and they no doubt accounted for the Tories being absolutely determined not to hold a People’s Vote.

  106. The National and Michael Fry – The reason I will never take out a subscription.

    DITCH FRY

    I am back on my hobby horse because I bought a National yesterday ( sorry WGD but I tend to avoid Tuesdays because of Fry’s column) due to the 52% headline. I know I know – it’s only one columnist but the guy infuriates me. I know I know – don’t read it then.

    In yesterday’s National Fry was spouting all the Britnat crap about wildcat referendums and we don’t want to end up like Catalonia. He says we are in a trap but we can’t have an illegal referendum and its terrible but says nothing about how to get out of this trap. We just have to wait is all he can come up with. What are we waiting for? Is there a bus with the destination called Scottish independence just miraculously going to come along. When will this bus come along – every 307 years. Who has set this undemocratic trap – Tories like Fry.

    There are plenty of different routes to independence but no mention of them by Fry.

    He also slags off independence supporters saying no use marching and shouting louder. I doubt he has ever been on a march in his life.

    What really makes me worried is Fry the Tory who is not a Tory oh but he is aTory but just not Scottish Tory says he is happy with Nicola Sturgeons wait and see approach re independence but on everything else she is short of sound ideas. If the Tory Fry says the SNP are on the right track for independence we are right to be worried.

    Well I have a sound idea for the National – ditch Fry and give WGD two columns a week.

    Fry then tells independence supporters what to do and then with a complete lack of self awareness complains about the SNP government telling people what to do.

    DITCH FRY

  107. Trump raises the stakes in who can put out the biggest whopper of a lie. Trump claims in a speech that his daughter Ivanka has personally created £15 million jobs in the USA.

    What an inspiration he must be for the liar Johnson.

  108. “The reason I’ll never take out a subscription.”

    Michael Fry? One man who writes in the National once a week!

    Paul Kavanagh had an article in the National yesterday but no quotes from him? If everyone decided to follow your lead we’d lose the only newspaper supporting Independence, just what Westminster wants, and people like Paul would not only lose out financially but have no media platform to communicate from to thousands of people who probably don’t visit this site. This doesn’t just apply to Paul but to Leslie Riddoch, Gordon MacIntyre Kemp and a host of other genuine key pro-Independence activists and politicians. To be honest, I just don’t get it.

  109. Subscribe to the National. To achieve Independence. Buy and subscribe. More good than bad.

    If Sinn Fein had attended Westminster Brexit would not have happened. The Tories would not have had a majority. The rest is history. They do not attend for good reason but take the smart money. It increases the unionist majority.

    If the LibDems had not gone in with the Cons Brexit would not have happened. If the LibDems had some principles. The silver lining is Independence and reunification coming soon. Demographics.

    Everything happens for a reason. More good than bad? The Tories will fail big time. They always do. They offend so many people. They just cannot help themselves but they do. Help themselves and waste public monies. Austerity is killing people.

    500 people dead in China. 1,3Billion people.

    120,000 austerity dead. 60million people. Nothing said about it.

    • The National is more good than bad by a long way but surely it can be better – 100% good.

      “120,000 austerity dead.” Yes by Tories like Michael Fry – get him out of the National – DITCH FRY.

  110. Explain why the National has to employ aTory columnist Petra that slags off everybody in the independence movement except for the National.

    I read WGD as well but his column didn’t piss me off and I buy the paper most days of the week. McKenna in today’s paper I find annoying at times as he is a bit of a carpetbagger but he doesn’t stop me buying it because he is not a Tory like Fry. You know the nasty Tories. The undemocratic Tories. The Tories that say you aren’t having a referendum. Fry boasting about his Tory pal retiring on a big private pension while his Tory pals are removing the state pension from others. If I wanted to read that sort of right wing self congratulatory crap then I would buy the real thing and get the Daily Mail.

    I don’t think me not buying it on Tuesday is going to bring it crashing down but if you know better happy for you to explain it to me. In the meantime I’ll stick to my decision to avoid it most Tuesdays.

    I never asked people to follow my lead so wind your neck in a bit. I am asking the National to ditch Fry – perhaps you missed it in the original post so I’ll repeat it especially for you DITCH FRY!!!!!

    Now Fry’s article was big on telling independence supporters what to think and do – you are trodding this path as well.

    I don’t buy Fry’s crap that there are loads of Tories just desperate to vote for independence and the SNP if only Independence supporters became more like the Tories. If we were more like the Tories we would vote for the Tories.

    • Not like you to go off in the huff Petra.

      The beauty of having an independent mind that wants Scottish independence is that I can do and say what I like and what I don’t like and I don’t like reading articles from Tories slagging of independence supporters and telling them they should be more like Tories. I buy the National and I applaud and criticise as I see fit.

      My message to the National Newspaper

      DITCH MICHAEL FRY

      You never know you may get a lot more subscriptions especially if you give WGD two columns a week.

      • Ha ha ha. I never went off in a huff, Cubby, because you’re right it’s not my style. I just realised that I would be wasting my time trying to convince you whilst I had other links that I wanted to post.

        • Glad to hear that. Of course you are right you would be wasting your time. I don’t like to read Michael Fry – why because he is Tory – and I don’t like the National giving him a platform.

          There is no way I am saying to people don’t buy the National. I buy it myself. The paper has exceeded my expectations over the years.

          Message to The National – DITCH MICHAEL FRY.

          • Michael Fry isn’t for you Cubby. He’s for the section of Scottish society that identify as money grabbing bastards, they are Scots too and we are going to need some of them onside for independence to work.

          • Well Craig in my experience most of them, if not all, identify as British.

            Not sure many Tories buy the National. Most of them probably hide them under the Express or the Mail as they pick up their copy of one of the hate sisters.

  111. ‘Scot Goes Pop / Panelbase poll: Day of shame for the United Kingdom as, by a convincing margin, Scots say the Section 30 rejection means the UK is “no longer a fully democratic country”‘.

    ..”It shouldn’t be forgotten just how dramatic a break this UK government has made with decades of British democratic tradition. Until Theresa May, every British Prime Minister since Harold Wilson had made clear that Scotland could leave the UK if it voted to do so. Now we’re told that’s there is no longer any democratic route to independence for decades to come, and that no matter how many times we vote to hold an independence referendum, our decision will simply be ignored.”..

    ..”With Don’t Knows removed, approximately 56% of respondents say that the UK is no longer fully democratic, and only 44% disagree. Remarkably, as many as 14% of respondents who would vote No in a new referendum appear to feel that the denial of a Section 30 has implications for democracy.”..

    http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/02/scot-goes-pop-panelbase-poll-day-of.html

  112. Welsh sion, is it true that the local council in Aberystwyth are withdrawing financial aid and help to this lovely town as it is hopeless to fight climate change accordingly and stop the sea rise taking the town?
    Are they really suggesting evacuating the people?
    Great way for climate change to be used as a weapon or to withdraw finances help.
    Back to the rest of the world,Perhaps long term control is the name of the game with climate change.
    And if climate change is going to be so disastrous in our future why are we trying to go to war with Russia, and are at war or building weapons to destroy other countries, have weapons of mass destruction. Why are they banning cars first from using fossil fuel when a 747 aeroplane uses 36 thousand gallons in ten hours, so I am told,
    Maybe it is better for governments to tax and control people’s movement around their country.
    Why is Co2 so bad, according to climate change guru’s,
    This is not what was taught at school in chemistry lessons,
    In Britain they are suggesting re-foresting, I am all for that, but then they confuse me and say we have to have less cattle, and sheep due to emissions of, (ahem,) gas.
    These people are illogical, there used to be millions of bison, goats, wild pigs, elk, deer, antelope, lions, tigers, elephants, rhinos, rabbits, hare, badgers, foxes etc, before humans went beserk and killed for sport. did these great amounts of animals never fart before, why did the world not deteriorate before now.
    And if the leaders are suggesting that we the people are contaminating the land and seas with plastic, why are they not banning the big corporations from making plastic? maybe it is easier to manipulate us.
    Why are the world leaders whom are scaring us all with climate change stories flying around in big private planes and cars?
    I have to admit things do not add up from where am standing, and I can think of a lot more contradictions than that, I just think I better stop before the rant takes over.

  113. Kirsty Hughes:- ”Dutch MP from governing D66 party on Brexit day: “Time to better represent our interests in pro-European Scotland. We are Scotland’s number one export destination in the EU. That is why the Netherlands should open a consulate general there as soon as possible.”https://mobile.twitter.com/KirstyS_Hughes/status/1224822608467845120

    …………………….

    1901 FGS!

    Reuters:- ‘UK regional productivity gaps as wide as 1901, no easy fix – report.’

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-economy-productivity/uk-regional-productivity-gaps-as-wide-as-1901-no-easy-fix-report-idUKKBN1ZY1FM?il=0

  114. The more James Kelly releases of his poll, the more I live in hope Sturgeon turns Holyrood 2021 into a proxy vote for Indy. Kills several birds with one stone: skips the courts and silences the knuckleheads moaning about too many elections and referenda, and allows her to ignore Johnson’s refusal for a Section 30 as well as any attempts to respect a referendum but exclude 16-17 year olds and our fellow Europeans.

  115. Scotland will be Independent within 5 years. Thanks to Boris Johnston. Johnston will help it happen in everything he says and does. Johnston is a complete and utter fool. The Tories will muck up again. Complete chaos as usual. They do not have a clue. Every day another blunder.

    Spending £Billions on a ghost train Hinkley Point and Trident etc. A total waste of monies.

    Cutting funding on essential services. NHS/Education/Welfare. Killing people off. It is just a complete and utter disgrace.

    The unionist politicians in Westminster are totally incompetent. Arrogant and ignorant. Most of them do not have a clue. Never have so many been promoted above their capabilities. People want to stay in the EU. The mess and shambles they are creating is just despicable.

    Support for the SNP and Independence is rising. Demographics will make it happen. Vote out all the unionist politicians. There will be no opposition. Then have another IndyRef.

    The SNP Gov standing up for Scotland. Mitigating the Westminster corruption. Then finally getting rid of Westminster corruption. Scotland will be better off more equal and prosperous. If Scotland gets better off so does the rest of Britain, Europe and the world. Make the world a better place. Vote SNP/Independence.

  116. @ James Cheyne

    Like you, I keep an open mind as to how we will ultimately achieve our goal. I am absolutely for everyone contributing their thoughts and ideas. I watch and listen and I am greatly stimulated and encouraged by the diversity of our movement. And I am able to enjoy the comments of genuine people however they are articulated.

    Our diversity is our strength.

    I wholeheartedly support the SNP but I have no illusions. The SNP was infiltrated years ago and there are those within it who are plotting our downfall. They are sorry, craven and shadowy creatures. Fortunately they are doomed to failure. Our movement is too diverse, our awareness is too acute and they do not have the capacity to understand that. Like other totalitarian regimes, the Brit State fails to understand that ultimately it can’t put the truth back in the box. The eyes and minds of our people are opening – as are the eyes and minds of those abroad – to the terrible lack of moral compass of The Brits. The Brits cannot contain their conceit and contempt and in increasing numbers our people are finding the courage to acknowledge their own fearful complicity in the marginalizing of themselves and their children. The day is coming, slowly but surely, when a substantial majority of our people will say enough is enough and will collective!y give our leaders instructions to give the Brits their marching orders. At that point

  117. What did Derek McKay think was going to happen when he reportedly ‘groomed’ a 16 year old boy?
    And don’t tell me that at 16 we are consenting adults. He is reportedly a schoolboy.
    It is right and proper that this silly man with more libido than brains steps aside.
    Baroness Ruth Davidson?
    As I predicted when she resigned to look after her baby sshe climbs on the Irone Hell Oligarchy Gravy Train..
    SoS for Scotland?

    McKay, you let the whole of Scotland down.

    The scandal that Baroness Davidson is going to pass into the Hierarchy with little public outrage because you haven’t the nous or social awareness to realise that texts to boys in your position is a festering scandal,held in abeyance by the Pig Troughers in the Press, and timed no doubt to shield Davidson from a barrage of protests.
    Any more sex scandals, SNP?
    For feck’s sake, who is the SNP’s Minder?

    • For the absence of doubt, my outrage would be the same if he had been sending ‘hundreds of texts’ to a 16 year old schoolgirl.
      Check out my typos above.
      I am beside myself at this selfish man’s behaviour.
      Clearly he knew what he was doing, and how it would end up.
      They’re having a field day on the airwaves and Dead Tree Scrolls.

      • Spot on Jack. Just as optimism begins to rise this happens. What on earth was he thinking about? Not his party, his leader, our cause or the country and certainly not that young boy or his family. Selfishness doesn’t even begin to describe this. Did he really think that this wouldn’t ever be exposed?

        Amazing too that just as he was due to deal with the budget and on the day when we hear that dark money Davidson, of the squeaky clean Tory party, will be made a Baroness, the MSM run with this story. How long have they been sitting on it? And they’ll make sure that it runs, with whatever else that they can dredge up, until next months court case no doubt.

        Over and above that young boy and his family, I feel heart sorry for Nicola Sturgeon. I just wonder if she’s capable of continuing to deal with the stress that she’s under. Add to that it looks as though whoever takes over from Derek MacKay, and probably doesn’t know the ins and outs of the budget, is going to be given a real hard time not just by the BritNats in Holyrood, the Councils, the Unions but by Patrick Harvey too.

        • There is something rotten running through our Scottish Institutions, Petra.
          The Health Boards which seem to be managed by a bunch of hard nosed fools, the obdurate resistance of LA’s to work with hospitals to provide joined up health and care, particularly for the elderly, the new hospital building scandals involving Edinburgh, Glasgow and others,the Calmac Ferries debacle, and so on.

          It is clear from FMQ today that the Tories, Labour, Lib Dem, and now the Greens are meeting behind closed doors and attacking the SNP and holding Nicola Sturgeon accountable for everything from MacKay’s fall from grace to Ross Greer’s incredible question; what was the FM going to do about air pollution outside a Bearsden Primary School?
          The pro Independence polls have spooked them big time.
          They know that the Union is dead.

          It has turned very nasty indeed.
          One of Toodle Oo The Noo’s ‘chums’, Rebecca McQuillan lied today in asserting that the FM to her embarrassment (as perceived by Ms McQuillan) ruled out Indyref 2 this year in her speech last Friday.

          Of course the FM did not rule out a second plebiscite this year. But that’s not the Beeb Propaganda message is it?

          MacKay will resign his seat. His political career is over.If he were my MSP, I’d expect nothing less.

          They are having a deliciously lurid day, the Brit Nats are.

          Carlaw reading out the official definition of child grooming left a particularly nasty taste in the mouth.

          This is beyond party politics.

          • Every key institution in Scotland has been infiltrated, Jack. This is what happens when you’re a colony. And if Harvey starts playing silly, big ego, bu**ers at this critical time in our history the death knell will be chiming for him too.

          • No matter how much the ratchet up Project Smear, over two million of us non SNP members will still vote YES, and counting.
            The Greens have just lost it completely.
            Perhaps NS should call a SGE right now.
            Or the SNP Administration resign from government en masse and hand Scotland over to Carlaw Leonard Rennie and Harvie?

    • Please don’t make the mistake of ignoring the obvious, the stitch up. Indeed he may have been imprudent, forward, or downright nasty, but there are sections of the security apparatus dedicated to conjuring such things, and I suspect Mackay recognised that reality too late..
      Mackay is the patsy or the nasty, but there is the faint stench of rotten Thames fish in the timing of this particular exposee, and a certain increase in staff numbers in the Scottish Office may have had something to do with it.
      Leave the police to deal with wrong-doing, but our task should be to NOT let this dominate discussions a la Salmond, or a la Contaminated Water as they would wish..
      SNP et al will doubtless have been infiltrated, but their MO is generating public outrage, let’s not feed their beast…

      • Blimey Paul, write something, this thread has gone mental…
        PS – Don’t forget beyond Mackay’s personal current issues his intent to furnish an alternative GERS may have just have just shrunk a few sphincters onto seats sufficiently in some quarters that they nuked the carrier hoping to irradiate the message 😉

  118. Sending a text message is now crime of the the century. The Tory PM liar is now robbing the public purse and killing people off. Awarding others for failure with public money. What a State. A complete, hypocritical liar. Unfit for public office and ruining people’s lives. The Brexit shambles.

    The Tories will just be voted out. A complete and utter mess. Scotland will be Independent of the Westminster corruption and scandal. They will be voted out. People can see the double standards of hypocrisy. Without a doubt.

  119. 40 texts a month. One exchange can be 10 texts, easily. 4 a month. Totally exaggerated. Inappropriate but hardly crime has of the century. Now resigned.

    270 over 6 months.

    The double standards plain to see. The double standards misogynistic Press. The BBC Press inequality issues. Women paid less than men. The bigoted racist double standard MSM. Owned by tax evading non Doms. Supporting illegal wars and Brexit. They tax evade and ruin the economy. The double standards scandal.

    The BBC rip off. £5Billion cost. Controlled by Westminster unionists. Nearly every word a lie. The only thing Sky Get right is the time. Murdoch the criminal sacked Johnston for telling lies. All in it together. Ripping off the public.

    Do they think people can’t see through them. The sycophant MSM. They were saying Alex Salmond was gay as a slur. Look at them now. The gutter press. Up to their eyes in debt. Trying to rip off the public.

  120. On over anxious parent worried about how their child gender identifies. Matters not be helped by plastering it all over the Press. In fact quite the opposite. The child will be mortified. Especially with any inappropriate identification.

    PC should keep out of it. Or it will costs £thousands more wasted public monies Another storm in a teacup. Mountain out of a molehill fuelled by the biased lying Press. Wasting public monies.

    They think people cannot see through it. They can on the internet. They can also see the accusers and the motives.

  121. I note that the Dead Tree Scrolls (or dowp-dichters as I call them) are far less assiduous in calling out immorality on the part of Johnson et al than when SNP politicians behave indiscreetly. I wonder why.

  122. I feel heart sorry for Nicola Sturgeon I think she is surrounded by a bunch of morons.What the hell was Derek McKay thinking. With what is happenning with Alex Salmond too it was a wholeheartedly idiotic thing to do. I am beginning to think all men are stupid The whole thing has been grossly exaggerated a 16 year old is an adult and saying someone is cute is not a sexual comment but a totally niaive thing to do from a politician in his 40s. To anyone connected with the Snp or senior in the Indy movement stay the hell away from social media or any kind of messaging service unless you are talking about politics

    • Surely they must know that Westminster will have a department, no doubt funded by £millions, that’s sole purpose is to monitor, investigate and expose all SNP politicians? FGS it’s not bl**dy rocket science, except seemingly for people like Derek MacKay. Nicola Sturgeon can’t control every last one of them, know what they’re doing, and must be wondering what she’s going to be hit with next.

  123. Take on the English Establishment and this is what happens ,
    look like your succeeding and a shit storm will be rained on you , all of a sudden the English media are taking notice when for months anything to do with Scotland was well hidden ,
    Top Story on LBC a London radio station , yep you guessed it SNP just a coincidence aye sure it is .
    I wish Nicola would take this Establishment head on , the case of the Security Services involvement in Scottish politics including the Media , let the public know what most of the Independence movement have suspected for some time the direct collusion of the media including the BBC , we are attempting to resist the whole of the establishment and they’re getting nervous because we are winning

    • Indeed – the only way to deal with the British Nationalist MSM is to stay one step ahead. A wee bit Salmond! Be nice and obedient, following all the rules consistently and they will utterly destroy you.

      Do something, SNP.

      Seize back the initiative.

      Quietly waiting for things to happen just allows the establishment to set the narrative – risky. Look what happened to nice guy Corbyn. Stir things up, even if yer not ready for indyref 2, do something, anything.

  124. Perhaps the SG are waiting for the Salmond trial to announce something big and contentious thereby flooding the news? I really really hope so. Remember the media can only deal with one big issue at a time – stir it up and they are all over the place. Don;t allow them to focus all their guns at the same target. Distract them, confuse them, enrage them. Anything, but do something.

  125. It’s the oldest political trick in the book – how do you think Salmond dragged the SNP from being a fringe party to mainstream? I wish the current SNP politicians used it sometimes. 🙂

  126. Funny how the Britnat media is not interested in the fact that only 39% of Scots now think that the UK is fully democratic. People are paying more attention than they would like.

    Let’s see how Murray Foote gets on when he is up against the Britnat media.

    Proud to say I have never purchased a copy of the Sun – not even when it had its spell of supporting the SNP. The Britnat media are disgusting and so are the people who work for them.

    Message to the National – DITCH THE TORY MICHAEL FRY?

    • The National, I’m sure Cubby has to cover a variety of viewpoints, including that of a Tory who supports independence, whether we agree with him or not, imo.

  127. This carry on with Derek McKay makes me think that my suggestion of having a dedicated minister for Independence is needed. Just too much workload for Nicola Sturgeon.

    The Britnats will try and cause as much chaos as possible to distract from the key job of independence. It is not a coincidence that this has been published by the Britnat media just before the Scottish budget debate.

    If this has been going on for 6 months funny how the Sun just reports it at this point in time. It is obvious this was politically timed and politically motivated.

    There are a lot of people who hate the SNP and I don’t just mean politicians/media.

    Meanwhile Truthless Davidson picks up a job for life in the H of Lords.

  128. Some people are more worried about a football pundit carry on. Headlines, The world is going to ruins. Another Tory troughing it. They just have no shame.

    A few text messages are the end of the world. You could not make it up, but they do.

    Crowd funded for Gary. AUOB. If they start the Marches in the morning. People travelling any distant cannot attend. That is why the unionists want earlier starts.

    The misogynists racist, bigots. Blackballers march when every they like. Incessantly. Double standards. No peace and quiet. Breaching the peace when ever they like. Despite complaints.

  129. Alex Salmond not doing too well with the MSM. Even supporters. Found guilty before any trial or evidence. Of what exactly?

    Feeling someone’s bun in a chipper restaurant. A fishy story. Not very likely. Wait for the evidence. Or the collapse. Laughed out of Court. More than possible,

  130. I was always surprised that Michael Stewart lasted as long at the BBC. Its not news but they just don’t like independence supporters.

    You probably have to wear Union Jack underpants to keep a job with the BBC.

    Clear out propaganda Quay and convert it into flats for the homeless. It will be the first time it has done anything good for Scotland.

  131. Grouse Beater’s ‘Wealth Of Scotland’ worth a read.

    ..’The point of this essay should be plain by now, by fudging the financial figures the British Government deliberately mislead the public into thinking that Scotland couldn’t survive on its own.

    Forbes magazine, a periodical no one can call remotely left wing, made the same observation, “the British Government has lied to Scotland to keep it under control.” ….

    ..’Losing Scotland means England-rUK takes a massive hit to its GDP. The UK would lose oil reserves, gas reserves, hydro power, arable farmland, forestry, sea area, reservoirs, fishing waters, gaming lands, rock and granite quarries, slate reserves, tourism income, export income, and a staging post to train half-baked comedians trying to make it in politics. Just watch some of England’s indigenous companies and financial institutions move to Scotland in double quick time.”..

    https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2019/01/19/the-wealth-of-scotland/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

  132. I wonder if this is the crew that are planning to form another pro-Independence party? The one that LizG has been referring to?

    I’ve just read the following:-

    Forty four indy groups attended a meeting in Glasgow today (2nd February) and agreed to go forward with the Indy list seats campaign. The Peoples Alliance (temporary name) will now move forward and with only one goal, Independence. No policies, No promises and No Holding the SNP to ransom. Support the SNP in the constituency seats and stand only for the list seats. With only 25% of the indy votes that could garner a dozen list seats and give the SNP government a guaranteed indy majority. 50% of the vote could even possibly make the alliance the opposition. Think of it, Two indy parties far outnumbering the unionists in Holyrood. There is a lot of work to do though before it ever comes to that possible future and we will need all the help that we can muster. You can visit our current page on facebook to join in the conversation. You can also visit the real Scottish independence Movement site for more information. (This has nothing to do with the new sim group on fb).”

  133. The percentage of Britnats BTL on WOS is becoming so high these days it’s hard to tell if it is an independence site.

    • Completely agree, I look in on WoS on a daily basis ( as I have for years!), and I’ve never seen it so bad – every second post seems to be “sack Nicola” or variations on that theme.
      Any decent comments are being overwhelmed by gibberish.
      I’ll be giving it a miss.

      • Over and above the ”sack Nicola” chorus, I see that a number of them are now posting disgraceful comments about homosexuals to the point of admitting that they are homophobic online. Something that Stu Campbell would never have allowed. I used to love that site. Sad to see it going to the dogs.

  134. Looking for a favour Petra… If you don’t mind. 🙂
    I see my name was mentioned over on Nanas new site could you please post the following over there as I don’t know how?

    Hi everyone, I do visit and read what your all saying…
    I’ve tried twice in the past to comment and not quite made it.
    I followed Normans instructions the best I could but no joy.
    I’ll have to wait till one of my co-pilots are around and pin them to help.
    Anyhoo!
    Re the New Party …. Just an FYI for the site owner….
    I pointed out to my friend that this site has offered online resources to Indy groups should they need one and she has past that on for them to consider.
    We didn’t know what their plans were in that direction but they will need an online presence and there’s an ( to coin a phrase) “oven ready ” one right here.
    So I hope you don’t mind?
    All my best to everyone and I’ll get on this forum sooner or later xxx

    • No problem Liz. Does that apply to the first part of your post down to ..”to help.”

      Or do you want me to post your full post on Indyref2?

      • Liz just reading your post again and it looks as you want me to post your full post on Indyref2.

        Just laughing to myself, between us we’re coming across as a couple of bumbling idiots. You canny post on there and I’m not sure what to post, lol.

        • Done Liz X

          And Liz if you want to post on there go to the site and click on the word forum. Click on the word register and then fill in the boxes.

          1. Your name … LizG
          2. Your e-mail address.
          3. Click on I’m not a robot and carry that out.

          That’s the registration process finalised.

          When you next go on to actually ”log in” you’ll have to make up a password.

          That’s it basically. If you want to post something click on forum and then go to ”Blether”, scroll to the bottom and post your comments.

          I hope that helps and I’m sure that everyone on there will be pleased to hear from you. If you have any further problems just let me know X

          PS If you want to read the links or add to them go to forum and just click on ”links”.

        • LOL all of it if you want Petra…. The first part kind of explains it all…
          Thanks very much Petra it’s like Indy we’re all at different points but we get there… 🙂 .

  135. The next time Scot goes pop does a poll I’m going to ask for a question re if you are a Tory do you support independence. That may give a better idea how many there are. IMO tiny numbers. I think it would be easier to find a snow leopard in Scotland than find another like Fry claims to be.

    Sorry Petra but I don’t see why it HAS to cover Tories. I think we should agree to disagree on this.

    Now I do not read all his articles by any means as I avoid Tuesdays but any I have read are not exactly positive about Scottish independence so:

    DITCH THE TORY MICHAEL FRY

    • Included in the poll was a similar question as to do you believe Scotland has the right to a referendum and 5% of Tories agreed Scotland does have that right, there are Tories who will vote for Independence now as they’re centre ground Tories and not the 1930s Germany version they have in England now, quite a few Tories don’t like these recent developments

  136. The Polls show the Indy majority in Holyrood will be 75? out of 129. 65 needed. The SNP will get 1. Greens 1 LibDems 1. Labour will lose 3? If that happens. i.e. Without another Indy Party. Another IndyParty might split the vote. If people do not understand what is being done. SNP lose seats. Then are not supported or held to ransom by mavericks. Doing more bad than good.

    Best to just get on with it. Not muddying the waters when the demographics are changing. In the right direction.

    SNP on 50%l It could rise further. The rest combined 50%. Greens support Indy. So far.

    Change the electoral system. Designed to give no majority. Favoured by unionists. D’Hond’t. Puts 1st preference in the bin to let 3rd losers in. Quota. Or everyone’s second choice. Voters do not understand the system. Some think they have to vote for different candidates. Or try to chance the system. To get their candidate in. The loser wins.

  137. Sarah the news at it again. Biggest scandal ever. The pundit stories takes precedence again. Along side the car tracking incidence. Another massive mystery. The News.

    Johnston lies again. Calls Nicola inappropriate lies. Then denies it.

  138. In today’s National a letter writer says ” I’ve always imagined the BBC’s Glen Campbell to be a fair and impartial observer of Scottish constitutuional affairs, however, I was surprised……..

    I nearly spilled my coffee reading this.

    I’ve got news for you Mike Herd he is the biggest ultra Britnat of all the Britnats on the BBC.

  139. Scotland Tonight

    A scumbag from the Sun turns up to try and stick the knife in Nicola Sturgeon by saying she should have suspended McKay earlier. The scumbag tries to imply Sturgeon initially played it down. More to follow in his scummy paper tomorrow he says.

    The scumbag says he cannot give full info on his sources but then says it was the mother coming forward. It was coincidental it was on budget day he says. A life in the gutter – Sun journalists.

    They call themselves the Scottish Sun but they are a Britnat paper.

    Rhona didn’t ask. – did any money change hands for the story – thought that would have been an obvious question to ask.

    People like Derek McKay and Sun journalists will not stop Scottish independence.

    • The Sun Paper of any description you trust why?
      The Sun reporters of such high moral fibre that it is almost impossible to buy the paper in Liverpool to this day, and rightly so.
      The Sun did they learn from their dead sister (The news of the screws) how to hack phones.

      • “The Sun paper of any description you trust why?”

        Is that a question to me?

        If it is read my post again – the Sun in all its versions is scum. I thought that was crystal clear from my post but hopefully I have removed any doubt that I do not trust the Sun to deliver anything worthwhile.

  140. Every cloud has a silver lining, and has there ever been such a ray of sunshine through a storm than the young lass, Kate Forbes, this afternoon? Fair play to her. Heartwarming and very reassuring.

  141. My husband read the Sun today at work and said that the MacKay story covered five pages. Too bad that they can’t get round covering the catastrophic implications for Scotland re. Brexit or the truth about Scotland’s wealth … for starters … over 5 pages now and again.

  142. The ‘Sun’ has an advert with a guy rubbing a man’s feet. Is that predatory? Really creepy and inappropriate on so many levels. The Sun is really, creepy greedy and inappropriate.

    Murdoch the criminal. Supporting illegal wars, tax evading, bribery and corruption on a massive scale. Getting away with it.

    The big story is still sport corruption. Blackballing, bigotry, racist, misogynist and inequality,

    • Talking of Murdoch watch this to see what he’s up to in Australia. In this Australian Broadcasting Corp program. Note when they refer to Sky News it’s Sky News Australia which is fully owned by Murdoch and nothing like Sky UK. The Aussie Sky is like a Fox in the US.

      Watch It’s frightening how much power Murdoch has

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s23q9DkCaVY

  143. Thousands of youngster get invited to parliament and sporting events. Millions of adults want to help youngsters and call them affectionate names. Interaction goes on all the time. Some people have really dirty minds. The gutter press and the double standards. They just make it up with wild accusations. Often much a do about nothing.

    A few inappropriate texts they just have a field day. Taken out of all proportion. Unfortunately the youngster could be harmed by all the Press intrusion. What a carry on. Taken out of all proportion.

    Philip Scofield is gay. Good luck to him.

    The Press will have a field day. The misogynistic, racist, unequal press. What a bunch of bigots. Blackballers.

  144. It makes people want to greet. A bit of compassion goes a long way. Instead of gross sensationalism for affect. Some people go through such anguish, unnecessarily.

    People in glass houses throwing stones.

  145. This, from a crummy wee Brit Nat Hackess over at Herald Britland.

    The Screaming Headline with quotes:-

    “Nicola Sturgeon ‘banned shamed Derek Mackay from drinking at SNP conferences’.”

    Of course there is no evidence in this Hackess’ tawdry wee piece of muck raking to back up this ‘SHE KNEW!’ lie.

    Apparently the usual anonymous ‘source’ described here as ‘ A former senior staff member told The Herald the First Minister advised the MSP not to go out partying after his behaviour came up at senior staff meetings.’ doesn’t exist.

    In other words this grubby little nonsense is an ‘Exclusive’ flight of fancy by Hannah Rodger Chief Reporter, Herald on Sunday.

    I’d imagine that all the scummy little sex pests hiding in the ranks of the other parties will be treated to Ms Rodger’s ‘exclusive’ technique when they are eventually exposed. Or maybe not.
    I shall dance a jig when the Herald folds, which shall be any day soon now.

    • The anonymous source and critics say – a licence to print rubbish by the Britnat media. It looks like they are trying to smear Nicola Sturgeon.

      They really don’t get it. No matter who are the leaders they have no positive case to present for the Union. Only idiots would believe their made up union dividend of £2k for every man woman and child in Scotland.

      • First make the indy movement a one man/woman band – a personal cult following.

        Second destroy the leader (i.e. chop the head of the snake).

        It’s the oldest trick in the book. It won’t work in the indy movement’s case – far too deep a pool of talent and people able and willing to step up to the plate. Any big names taken out will be replaced sooner than ye can blink. The young woman’s brilliant delivery of the the budget in DM’s place yesterdaywas a classic example.

        It won’t stop em from trying however – they don’t have anything else, ye’see. 🙂

        • Kate Forbes was a pleasant surprise and her competent performance in such circumstances must have put a spoke in The Sun’s wheel. I’m sure they were gloating about derailing the presentation of the Budget by their ” timely” exposure of Derek MacKay.

      • Cubby, the other day, BBC Scotland 90 seconds News Where Dan Walker Isn’t reported on a scheme from Canada to be tried here, an SNP initiative, to administer alcohol to alcoholics under a controlled environment.
        Results in Canada were positive, describing alcoholics’ health, weight, and mental health improving.
        But no, the sour faced wee lassie announcing this potentially SNP Good item closed with the tried and tested:- ,but ‘critics’ say it will be shite, or words to that effect.
        We never get to hear from these fictitious ‘critics’; fictions of the imaginations of the BBC p
        Propaganda Team writing this Brit Nat SNP BAD copy.
        ‘Critics’ say the BBC in Scotland are a treacherous bunch of fibbers.

        • Yes Jack critics used to say seatbelts in cars were shite and an assault on personal liberty – the nanny state.

          Critics used to say a ban on smoking in public spaces was shite and an assault on personal liberty – the nanny state.

          Who comes out with all this guff every time there is a proposal to Improve society – bloody Tories like Michael Fry thats who.

          DITCH MICHAEL FRY FROM THE NATIONAL

  146. There are positives in Derek Mackay’s situation……..shhh………I’m trying to think of one
    Ahh!! Yes.

    Instant resignation, NO Deny, Deny, Deny, until the weight of proof or opinion forces exit.
    Instant suspension by the party NO mealie mouthed excuses, and we’ll get round to an enquiry or appoint an investigator later.

    A pity it is not standard practice to suspend, off pay any and all elected persons until such times as they resign or are proved innocent. In the latter case back pay awarded.

    It would behoove all in Scottish politics to remember the Plea…

    Please make my words sweet.
    For tomorrow I must eat them.

  147. Exactly Pogmothon. Nicola Sturgeon dealt with that situation promptly and appropriately. How many other leaders would that apply to? As far as I know the Ross Thomson investigation is still ongoing, as is the Johnston / Arcuri. Then there’s the Westminster paedophile ring decades long saga, 20,000 children being groomed (some sexually abused/raped) in England, that’s not being dealt with. A rise of 17,000 in the last year and so it goes on. They’ll no doubt keep this going until the Court case or find something else to hit the SNP with between now and then. And of course they’ll drag Nicola Sturgeon into every case in an attempt to undermine her. Totally scunnered with the British Establishment and their far reaching network of lying, corrupt hypocrites.

    • Petra, I’m sure that Jackson Carlaw will insist on a helpline being opened up for potential ‘victims’ if any Tory politician is subsequently found to have been interfering with young men in a bar.

      • I inadvertently (because I had been avoiding doing so) started watching the news tonight and heard just that Jack from the news presenter with Annie Wells standing by ready to pontificate. I turned it off at that point just after I’d heard him say that Jackson Carlaw wanted a helpline for people who wanted to report Derek MacKay. That was followed by the presenter saying that Nicola Sturgeon had stated that there’s already a helpline in place. No mention that it’s not just for Derek MacKay and / or SNP politicians. As I’ve said already I’m totally scunnered with it all. Just wondering how many Scots are aware of Tory perverts like Ross Thomson? Few I would imagine as the Establishment are second to none when it comes to “covering up” for the BritNats.

      • Well they never bothered requesting a helpline for all the previous instances e.g. Ross Thomson ex Tory MP (case still outstanding after so long I can’t remember); Miles Briggs Tory MSP – Briggs’s cleared in a private hearing conducted by the unbiased Tory party. Not to mention al the other English Tories from Westminster.

  148. This is just another excuse for anti-gay, misogynistic tendencies. The gutter Press cannot help themselves. No wonder they are going down the tubes,

    If it was a heterosexual married man with two children. Nothing would be said about it. The double standards.

    It is not helping any of those involved having it plastered all over the Press. In fact quite the opposite. No good will come from it. A couple of weeks it will be forgotten.

    When all the text messages that are sent thousands of them. They will be a tiny proportion of nothing. Yet everyone can take great offence. Jump on board the bandwagon of offence. Everyone offended for everyone else. When an apology and resignation was given In any case. Some boring texts not even given a reply.

    People are dying all over the world.
    A football pundit and car offence take precedence.

  149. Unfortunately, immediately after the 2014 ref and when people started speaking of the next push for another referendum, I remember saying privately to me and mine that it would be a problem if the next referendum were to be pushed too far into the future as there would be unforeseen trips and hazards waiting on that road, as well as plenty of mischief to be manufactured.

    It seemed also that because of the nature of politicians there might be events waiting to transpire that many of us could not expect, smears and honey traps perhaps, but then there was something that happened which has most of us stumped, the propensity of some politicians to blow themselves up.

    But could we stop putting too much trust in leadership? It is an unsustainable burden of expectation to put on any one individual. We should be more canny and trust ourselves more. A constitutional convention might be the way forward, engaging more people in what is the primary motivation of the yes movement, which is the right of self-determination. Let the SNP do government policy in the meantime and let them stand or fall by that as any political party has to. Our chief loyalty should be to the people of Scotland who we believe will prosper with independence and live in a better country.

    (Again it comes back to – 2014. If only, if only….that same old melancholy dirge which wails too frequently in Scottish history.)

  150. There is a need for total abstinence proper drink/drug rehab. Some Health Boards and council authorities do not provide them. Unionist? They leave people/Drs unable to prescribe them. The services are not funded properly so are in decline. They have to be funded privately. For a few £thousand. People who can afford it live. People who cannot raise the funding die.

    Some funding was passed down through social care to the councils. People are left on methadone for years. The authorities seem to think it is cheaper. It is not. Methadone is worse than heroin for the human body.

    People are dying unnecessarily because of inadequate funding. It cost more because there is more need for hospital services, police, social care and prison. A false economy.

    Everybody with addiction problems should get one chance, total abstinence rehab funding. If they relapse they still have the knowledge of what to do to overcome the problems. Get strong again.

    In the meantime they need to go to AA and NA. Even families will get some help and information they need.

    The SNP Gov are doing a good job in reducing addiction problems. People are drinking and self medication less. Alcohol consumption is going down. Now 15%? less.

    Scotland used to drink 25% more than the rest of the UK, Now people are drinking less. There still needs other authorities to fund proper rehab facilities. Instead of trying to do it in the cheap. It costs more in the end because of funding other services.

    MUP has reduced alcohol consumption by including other awareness programmes. Young people are more aware and drinking less and going for help with drug problems. There is less negative stigma involved and more knowledge available.

    Mental health issues are being identified. People on the spectrum getting the help they need. Much more awareness through education. More facilities need to be provided and funded not just by the Gov but by Health and local authorities. Some try to pass the buck and waste public money on poor facilities.

  151. Support for SNP/Independence is rising. It will happen within five years, demographically. People have to vote for it. There is still a push for it. Why there is total obsession with the time scale. It will happen when people vote for it and vote out all the unionists. It will be happening soon in any case,

    The Tories mucking up again will make the case. The despondency and negativity being portrayed is out of all proportion. Everything is aligning just as expected. Everything to look forward.

    Why people cannot be a bit more positive. Keep the pressure on and campaign for it. Anything worthwhile is worth doing well. People have to vote for it and they are. Support is increasing.

    20 to 25 years from Devolution is a good timetable. Nae bad. Once people could not have imagined it. Thatcher? Now it is happening. People just have to vote for it. The tide is turning, it is happening. Going in the right direction.

    Soon poverty in Scotland will be eradicated. Child payments.

  152. BBC Reporting Scotland

    The scumbags at Propaganda Quay going full pelt with the anti SNP propaganda.

    1. First up, on the MacKay story you have the useless pair of Britnats Annie Wells and Jackie Baillie who can usually, with a lot of takes no doubt, manage to say the SNP baad stuff with Baillie the star turn with a new comment – unsavoury. It is appalling that these useless people can sit for ever in the Scottish parliament.

    2.Next up a long piece on the disposal of drug needles in Glasgow. This long piece states the number of needles being left around Glasgow is increasing and goes on to describe how the problem in Copenhagen is being tackled by the establishment of a safe space for injecting. It leaves the viewer with the idea that neither Glasgow Council or the Scotgov are doing anything about the problem. What the report does not say is how the SNP MPs have been asking Westminster for the powers to do this for years but Westminster keeps refusing. Propaganda by omission.

    The devolved Parliament that the Britnats keep saying is the most powerful devolved parliament in the world does not even have the powers to open up a safe injecting facility.

    3. Moray Council is an SNP disaster sums up the report.

    We lose our EU citizen rights and our human rights re our democratic rights and this is what we get from Reporting Scotland. After independence a fire hose needs to be used to clean out Propaganda Quay.

    • Well,they do smell blood, Cubby.

      Batten down the hatches. It will be a ferocious feeding frenzy for at least another week. Then it dies until the Salmond trial when it all kicks off again. “SNP BAAAAAD!”

      As I keep repeating, if the SNP don’t take the initiative now and set the narrative, the Britnats will set it for them. Nice how reasonable and polite the BritNat politicians and reporters are today? Cool, calm and collected, not the usual angry red faces! It’s because they think they are winning.

      Dedicate rebuttal units and clever spins are fine, but you can’t win independence by continuously fire-fighting, which is what seems to be happening right now. Put out the fires by all means, but please unleash a few thunderstorms of your own. Unsettle the establishment before they destroy the movement. And keep one step ahead – allow them to regroup and we are finished.

      • Luigi
        The SNP?are far to soft.i. Have said before and will repeat.they need to start suing these gutter press papers.what they are getting away with is absolutely disgraceful and unbelievable.the least bit of story they get about the SNP.it is plastered all over.SNP.BAD.but how do you get it through to the SNP.they are never going to learn.the tabloid are going to any lengths to try and destroy Nicola Sturgeon.and the SNP.all these lies and propaganda are doing our party no good.saying that it does not stop me from wanting Scottish independence.and there are very very many think the same.it is time the SNP.started getting in about these British nationalists.the quicker the better.lets get out of this discredited union.

        • ”They need to start suing these gutter press papers.” Where would they get the money to do that Joe? We’re no exactly talking about the Tories here that have their donators £billions behind them.

  153. Moray Council was a Tory disaster. The SNP had to take it over. The mess is still getting sorted because people vote Tory, They would not put up the Council tax a fraction and started cutting services. The Tory started to complain about his own Council group and stood down because he could not cope. Another unionist disaster. Needing sorted out.

    Aberdeen CC another Labour/Tory disgrace. Appallingly run, One LibDem became Independent to go in with them. One member short. The usual. £1.2Billion in debt. They sold the City on the stock exchange. The have wasted £Millions. £200Million building empty shops and offices Muse project

    Instead of pedestrianised green open spaces. A built up jungle no one wanted. A two job Tory keeps them in Office. The Tory MSP is useless. A multimillionaire farmer and another estate owner. CAP payments. They support Brexit damaging the Scottish economy. They made speeches supporting education. They voted to cut that as well, They do not support policies helping people. Extended nursery care or mitigating poverty.

    CC refused a £80million gift UTG project which would pedestrianised and renovated the City. Additional cost £20Million. Spending £30Million renovating an Art Gallery. Now they are selling off property. The usual. Wasting money instead of funding essential services.

    Spent £300million on a Conference Centre. Badly run. Two parking paying points. Absolute chaos, £10 to park, 12,000 capacity. 2,000 parking spaces. It takes hours to get out for the queues. They are never stopped complaining the Scottish Gov does not give them enough money. Even more to waste.

    The Scottish Gov have paid £Billion for AWPR. Saving emission and journey times improving the economy. After 40 years. £20Million Sport Centre. Invested in wind turbines now powering the City and elsewhere. Invested £Millions building a new harbour project. Railway investment and other projects.

    The only time the City was properly run was a SNP/LibDem administration. The City was run successfully and the books were balanced,

    That could have continued if the LibDem had not became an Independent and went in with the Tories, Ditto Labour. Now running the City illegally. They have no shame. Wasting monies like there is no tomorrow and not funding essential services properly.

  154. Aberdeenshire Council Tory/LibDem. One member short for a SNP administration. Labour members supported SNP admin.,successfully for a change. What they should be doing. To be professional and ambitious. Stop the gravy train.

    The SNP administration were going to sell off the exorbitant HQ. Cost £Millions for 60+ councillors. Over £300million. Build a proper community HQ. More people could use. The surplus funds could be used to build schools and affordable house and fund essential services,

    The LibDems voted Tory. A Tory/LibDem admin got in. They stopped all the progressive plans went back to square one. The schools are overcrowded but nothing is done. For four years. More new house building without essential services funding. The SNP Gov funded a new Academy. The Health authorities funding a new clinic.

    There has always been low unemployment. Lower unemployment all over Scotland. Once the only region with an expanding population. Now more static.

    The decline in the Oil industry but an increase in renewables. Fishing farming food and drink. Major exports after Oil. Business investment. Tourism. Golf. Trump Development, Some houses built. Entertainment, leisure facilities. Visitors. Whisky trail. World class scenery, especially in the North.

    At least an SNP MP has been elected recently A vast improvement. After the LibDems voted Tory in the last election. Brexit will affect the NE economy really badly. The AWPR, investment in renewables, the new harbour, and other SNP Gov projects have really helped the region. The region was really underfunded by unionist Cosla. The Oil revenues went south to fund London S/E.

    Renewables are taking over from Oil industry. Oil (fuel) companies are investing in renewables They are much cheaper to produce. Decommissioning projects at Dundee etc. A deep harbour.

    Scotland is the best placed for renewable energy. Geographically, Hydro power benefits Scotland, There have been tidal projects in France since the 1960’s. Westminster reneged in a tidal barrage on the Humber and a tidal project in Wales which would have helped the economy. Q

    The Westminster Gov are reneging on CCS projects. Other countries are investing in CCS in the North Sea. Scotland is being left behind as usual by Westminster unionist incompetence ignorance and corruption,

    They are wasting £Billions on nuclear. It is far more expensive and dangerous. Just a waste of money. The Westminster admin cut funding for renewables. Wind, wave and solar. Cut investment in them all. Brexit a catastrophe.

    £Billions wasted on a ghost train. Not enough customers. No business case. A two tier system always funded with public money. More Investment should be made in the North and Scotland to cut rail journeys throughout. Britain. HS2 will make journeys to Scotland take longer. Changing trains. More expensive and inconvenient.

  155. Mr NcKenna is ill informed, it is the young ones who are pushing for gender, equality and recognition. They are the next generation. They are pushing for it. They just interact, Do not care where they change. The times are a changing. Not the Times and criminal Murdoch. They are yesterday’s news, No one buys it any more. Or the Herald going down the tubes. The National expanding. One of the few.

    Non Dom tax evading owners destroying the world for greed. Supporting illegal wars and Brexit. Destroying the world for greed. Enough is never enough. The times are a’changing. The youngsters coming to the fore with different values of changing the world. They might succeed with a bit of encouragement,

    The young ones are pushing for gender tolerance and recognition in Law, They are pushing for it. Tolerance and compassion. To work round it. They will succeed. The oldies have had their day. Now the young ones want to have their say.

    They do not care where they change. Not consumed with the human body. Ideals rather than ideology. Differences to be recognised in Law for equality and gender recognition.

    They are more tolerant and recognise diversity. The times they are a’ changing with more openness. It is inevitable the young ones will succeed. The tide is turning. Everyone else will keel over eventually. For compassion, equality and Independence. The demographics.

    Mr McKenna has totally got the wrong end of the stick. Sticks and stones. It is a generational gap. People in glass houses should not throw stones. Be more compassionate. It is the young ones who are in support of gender tolerance and recognition in Law.

    They are the future. That is why it will happen. They are pushing for it. They want it recognised, They are more tolerant and emphasise with diversity.

    They have been brought up in a different world from division and hypocrisy. They are more diverse, free and tolerant. They want it recognised in Law. They do organise. That is the difference. A generation gap of intolerance. People being offended in offence of others.

  156. Another excellent and beautifully drawn Cairnstoon today. Who says I never say anything good about WOS😀😀😀😀😀

    • Knowing my reputation on THIS site, may I suggest that that ‘O’ is all important.

      Otherwise, could anyone referring to me by using my full name on here? (The name sounds a bit like that of the first name of the best ever James Bond … or a Claymation sheep … And, yes, I am, male.)

      • .???????? Sorry. Welsh Sion I have no idea what you are going on about. Hopefully you do.🤔🤔

        WOS = Wings over Scotland – does that help in any way😀?

          • My plea is for you to attack WoS if that is what rocks your boat (I, too, frequent Stuart Campbell’s blog less frequently than before), but, unless I do something particularly outrageous – like becoming Director of Iain Duncan Smith’s Fan Club Membership: currently, 1 – then don’t attack WS.

            A typo rendering WoS as WS could be highly damaging to my status as one of the Welshies here who regularly contributes and actively supports your (and our) independence.

            Yours, aye,

  157. Well worth a read, especially in relation to the farcical beliefs about sovereignty. The reason they gave for dragging us all out of the EU.

    ..”The danger of the history propagated by Johnson, Rees-Mogg and their ilk is that it dodges that challenge. In writing a history of Britain as a small power, it pretends that nothing has changed: that a nation stripped of its colonies, its industrial power and its control over global finance has the same options today as in the age of its pre-eminence. That means that we are not being serious about the choices in front of us.

    For the big strategic questions have not gone away. What is Britain’s economic future, as a medium-sized economy in a world dominated by China and the United States? What is Britain’s diplomatic role, in a world without an empire? How can Britain maximise its sovereignty over its internal decision-making – which is not an unworthy ambition – in a world in which trade rules are set internationally, in which companies like Google and Facebook have larger GDPs than many countries, and in which issues like climate change render national borders irrelevant?

    Europe may have been the wrong answer to those questions – though that is not my own view – but Brexit means we are going to have to find new answers, under perhaps less favourable conditions. If we pretend those dilemmas do not exist, or if we simply go back to old answers because we have forgotten why they were rejected in the first place, disaster lies ahead. Brexit requires a fundamental recasting of Britain’s national strategy. Achieving that will require more imagination, more humility and a more clear-eyed appreciation of the options than anyone has yet offered in Britain’s tortured Brexit debate.”

    http://gladstonediaries.blogspot.com/2020/01/brexit-in-historical-perspective-age-of.html

  158. Par for the bl**dy course.

    ”The BBC has been accused of using an indoor bowling contest in Norfolk to meet their promise to make more programmes in Scotland.”

    ..”There were allegations of “lift and shift” where a TV company would set up a Scottish “desks”, but the majority of the work, the majority of the spending and employment remains in London…

    ..”There has long been tension between the Scottish Government and the BBC over the money spent here.

    Analysis published by the Scottish Parliament’s Information Centre (Spice) in 2018 found the BBC raised just under £324 million last year from licence fee-payers in Scotland, but spent £223m – 69% of the total – in Scotland, with the remaining £101m directed to headquarters. The percentage was down from 72% during 2016-17.”

    http://www.thenational.scot/news/18220713.bowling-norfolk-counts-bbc-quota-scottish-programmes/

    • Excuse me!!!
      LOL … It was always like that Cubby and it’s just the way I like it 🙂
      Anyhoo… The poster your talkin aboot is a wee troll!
      Read back her ( no man claims Tiny anything ) stuff..
      There’s a one sentence comment baiting the Rev a day or so ago..
      I remember thinking…
      Cubby would have ” had that”,when I saw it!
      AND STOP calling me Cuckoo…. When I’m clearly only insane 🙂

  159. Not ”intellectually honest”? In other words they’re a bunch of conniving liars.

    ‘Obama’s former US consul in Scotland attacks Tories’ indyref2 stance.’

    Linnet commented: “The UK government can’t say in 2014 that Scottish independence would be bad because Scotland would not be an EU member anymore with all those huge economic benefits and then say in 2018 that Scotland can’t be independent post-Brexit with no EU economic benefits.

    “Makes no sense. None of their words were/are intellectually honest or proven by sound economic data. I hope the EU does leave the light on for you. As I’ve said many times I have no dog in your fight but I can see ‘what’s what’ …”

    http://www.thenational.scot/news/18221241.obamas-former-us-consul-scotland-attacks-tories-indyref2-stance/

  160. The BBC spend is £5Billion, The Westminster propaganda unit. They spend as much on estate property as they do making programmes. Worldwide propaganda. Westminster controlled. Totally over the top.

    The authority has reprimanded lead journalists for their biased comments on twitter and social media. The do not pay tax but tax evade on vast salaries. Unequal pay structure. Breaking the Law. The Press Office makes sure MSM follow the Westminster line. Threats are made to comply.

    Leveson recommendations were not introduced. The second phase halted. The criminal Press just getting away with it. Breaking the Law.

    Without a free and fair Press there is no democracy. Westminster are supposed to ensure a balanced Press, Thatcher illegally handed it over to Murdoch for support. Then denied it.

    Murdoch was breaking the Law. Making money by breaking the Law. It is illegal to bribe public officials anywhere in the world, under US business Law. Murdoch a US citizen for business reasons has never been held to account.

  161. Britain will be back in the EU because young people want it. They support it. The young ones also support gender recognition in Law. That is why it will happen. They support more diversity and freedom. They have been brought into a more equal, diverse world. They are pushing for it.

    Yesterday’s people are agin it. They will be gone. The young ones ideals will become the norm. They will have their say. They want a more equal, diverse world. They have been brought up to accept it. A different world. Times they are a changing. It is a generational gap.

    Perverse gay ‘bashing’ dressed up as supporters of women’s rights. By people who do not give a damn. A paternal society still trying to retain power. The spectacle now of gay bashing gay.

    The younger one’s can see through it. They will have their say. They have had enough of it. They have been brought up in a different world. More diverse, tolerant and accepting. They want gender recognition in Law for acceptability and practicality.

    They do not see any harm. That is why it will happen. Even for a relatively small minority. The storm in a tea cup. The mountain out of a molehill. The mass hysteria of yesterday’s people. Just old fashioned. Rigid to type and hype. They will have to move with the times. The times are a’changing. Internationally.

  162. ‘Scot Goes Pop / Panelbase poll: By wide margin, Scottish voters say Holyrood should legislate for a consultative independence referendum WITHOUT a Section 30 order if London remains intransigent.’

    …Question:- ”There are differing legal opinions on whether the Scottish Parliament currently has the power to hold a consultative referendum on independence without Westminster’s permission. If the UK government continues to refuse to give permission, do you think the Scottish Parliament should legislate to hold a referendum and then allow the courts to decide whether it can take place?

    Yes 50%
    No 39%

    With Don’t Knows excluded, approximately 56% of respondents think a referendum should be called without a Section 30 order, and only 44% disagree.”..

    http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/02/scot-goes-pop-panelbase-poll-by-wide.html

    • Following on from Petra’s post:

      Today on Twitter Joanna Cherry said she welcomed the poll and added: “I believe that Holyrood passing a bill to hold a referendum could be part of a multi-faceted strategy to move us away from the current impasse and stop the constant and unproductive talk about Section 30 orders and seeking “permission” to act from Westminster.

      “The balance of legal opinion is that we might well win any court challenge and I don’t believe that losing would set us back any further than where we are just now. Boris Johnson should be put on notice that we have options and we are not afraid to push forward.

      “After three great independence polls it’s time to consider our options. The timing of taking the consultative referendum route and thus inviting a legal challenge will be crucial. However I agree that …now is the moment to begin the preparations. To tell Johnson “see you in court” if he continues to block Scotland’s demand for indyref2.”

      (Cut and paste from The Scotsman – 09 February 2020).

  163. Brewer is so ignorant and ill informed it is embarrassing. Just like the rest of the MSM. They just have not got a clue. They cannot count or read a balance sheet, The nonsense that they spout is just ridiculous.

    No wonder no one can be bothered with it. Neil has been broadcasting rubbish since the 1980’s. Thatcher’s henchman. It made them £Millionaires fleecing the public purse.

    People paying to be called names by these so called experts. They have not got a clue. Clueless and ignorant. The BBC experts and the MSM. No wonder no one watches or listens. The bookies always get it right. Fleecing people.

    The authorities were reprimanding the leader reporters for their biased comments. The ‘experts’ who always get it wrong. Including the analysis. They cannot analyse facts and figures.

    Thank goodness for the internet. To call them out.

    • ”Brewer is so ignorant and ill informed it is embarrassing.”

      I don’t think that he is ill informed, Ken. I reckon that he, and the others, do know the score. Commonly known as a BritNat flymen and women.Westminster’s wee lackeys.

    • The National Party is in power in Scotland. (Previous election: Landslide).

      The National-Reunification Party is in the ascendancy in both the Republic of Ireland and the North and looking at a minimum to share power. (Previous elections: Landslides).

      The British National-Separatist Party is in power in England. (Previous election: Landslide).

      Guess who’s bringing up the rear.

      Strong and stable ‘Union’, anyone?

    • Thanks for the links, Terence. What a time we live in, eh? And when Ireland is reunified and Scotland and Wales wave bye-bye to the colonial master we can begin to heal the wounds of the past and look forward to the future. More than anything we’ll have the power to set the record straight for all time coming.

      ..”Britain’s narrative of the Irish “Troubles,” as evinced in its rare coverage of its crimes in Ireland on the BBC and its flat refusal to teach these events to its children, presents a skewed vision of Ireland’s struggle.”

  164. Anyone in any doubt about Looney Tunes being in charge of this Asylum referred to as the UK , just confirmed by SKY News minutes ago, Bawjaws Government are actively exploring plans to build a bridge over the Biggest Munitions dump on the Planet , let that just sink in even if you were blind bloody drunk that’s a thought that wouldn’t enter your head , but is normal in Bawjaws world , God help us all .

    • Yes and the arrogant moron has not bothered to consult the Scottish government or the Scottish people whether we want such a bridge and I am sure the majority do not. As far as I am concerned I want no such thing. Northern Ireland is a lovely place and so are its people but there is still far too much sectarianism there and I don’t want that exported here. We have enough problems already It would also be a total waste of an awful lot of money and of course there are huge logistical problems building a bridge of over so many miles. Ludicrous idea!!!

      • Worry not Eilidh.
        Yet another piece of Clown News from Johnson’s PR Team.
        A Bridge, an artificial 3 mile island and a tunnel to link Larne with Portpatrick.
        Aye, right.
        My favourite Fish ‘n’ chip shop in the South West (no sorry it is a sworn secret) will need to order a couple of extra hundredweights of Spuds to cope with the traffic between Carrickfergus and the Isle of Whithorn!
        What a load of nonsense, but at least the Dead Tree Scrolls are leaving MacKay alone, for a wee while at least.
        This is of course to deflect from the go ahead for HS”, which will never benefit, indeed will harm Scotland. WE shall of course be stuck with 8% of the £108 billion ‘estimated’ to speed up the journey from Birmingham to London by 6 minutes.

        Any one who has travelled the length of the A77 or the A75 knows that this piece of Bridge Tomfoolery is smoke and mirrors.
        Doesn’t stop our Scots Brit Nat Hacks obligingly filing column inches in their increasingly farcical little Dead Tree Scrolls on this.
        Was copy submitted to Rangers FC for edit before print?
        Or is it April 1st and I have just woken from a two month nap?

        • I don’t know if this breaches New Scientist copywrite. I hope not, Paul, since it illustrates perfectly why Boris Bridge is a nonsense, and the scant disregard England has for Scotland waters and the safety of our citizens in this, the last English colony.

          This article, originally published in November 1995, was updated on 10 February 2020. We changed the headline and created a new graphic due to the government’s investigation of a proposed bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland.

          “IN the past month, more than 4500 incendiary bombs from the Second World War have washed up on beaches around the west coast of Scotland. They are made of phosphorus, benzene and cellulose, and were designed to ignite on contact with air. Four-year-old Gordon Baillie picked one up while playing in his uncle’s garden near Campbeltown on the Mull of Kintyre. It burnt his hand and leg, and made his clothes smoke.

          The phosphorus bombs are the clearest warning so far of the dangers of using the sea as a dump for military waste. The bombs were dropped into the North Channel between Scotland and Northern Ireland fifty years ago, but are now washing up on land and starting to burn. Worryingly, the phosphorus bombs are just a tiny fraction of the 1.15 million tons (1.17 million tonnes) of conventional and chemical weapons known to have been dumped in the sea around Britain since the Second World War. They could be the heralds of more to come.
          Discovery of the first phosphorus bombs on 6 October at Saltcoats on the Firth of Clyde prompted a major cleanup operation. Every day for the following two weeks army bomb disposal teams picked up hundreds of them along the length of the Clyde coastline, round the Mull of Kintyre and on the islands of Arran, Islay, Jura and Gigha. Children were told to keep away from the beaches, farmers advised not to gather seaweed for fertiliser, and warning signs appeared on beaches.

          At first, the Ministry of Defence insisted that the bombs had no “UK military origin”, and that no evidence existed that they had ever been dumped at sea. But after a cross-party group of Scottish MPs met defence secretary, Michael Portillo, the story changed. On 2 November, the MoD admitted that the devices came from decayed 30 pound (13.6 kilogram) incendiary bombs of a type dropped from British aircraft in the Second World War.

          The implication, not yet confirmed by the MoD, is that the bombs had been sent for dumping in Beaufort’s Dyke, an underwater trench 50 kilometres long, 5 kilometres wide and about 250 metres deep, which runs within 10 kilometres of the Scottish coast. Between 1945 and 1976, the MoD dropped about 1 million tons of munitions into and around the trench, making it by far the largest known British military dump.

          On 10 February 2020, Boris Johnson said the government has been tasked with investigating two routes for a bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland. The routes mentioned included Portpatrick to Larne or near Campbeltown to the Antrim coast.

          But why should obsolete munitions suddenly start emerging from the dump? The most likely answer is an undersea gas pipeline linking Scotland and Northern Ireland. After consulting the MoD, British Gas decided to divert the pipeline immediately to the north of the designated dumping area around Beaufort’s Dyke. Its contractors began ploughing a 60-centimetre deep trench for the pipeline in the seabed just three days before the phosphorus bombs started to come ashore. Workers quoted anonymously in The Scotsman newspaper blamed the ploughing operation, although this was denied by British Gas. “We have no evidence connecting our operations with the appearance of these munitions,” says a British Gas spokesman.

          Scientists at the Scottish Office’s Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen, however, say British Gas is wrong. They say that the crew of the barge which helped to lay the pipeline submitted official reports to the coastguard describing how they had seen objects identical to the phosphorus bombs floating in the sea. Underwater video footage taken by British Gas’s contractors and studied by the scientists also clearly shows the bombs, and a host of other metallic wastes, next to the pipeline.

          According to the scientists in Aberdeen, it is now “beyond reasonable doubt” that the phosphorus bombs were dislodged by the ploughing operation. They floated to the surface and were blown north into the Firth of Clyde and round the Mull of Kintyre by the prevailing winds, say the scientists. This week, the Marine Laboratory began an urgent two-week survey of the seabed around Beaufort’s Dyke. It will sample fish and sediment, and scan the seabed using sonar and video cameras.

          The survey is likely to confirm what British Gas discovered by accident: that many of the munitions meant for Beaufort’s Dyke never got there. Instead, they were dumped in shallow waters en route to the dyke by ships from Stranraer and Cumbria. Two seamen from Stranraer who sailed on dumping expeditions in the 1940s, John Balfour and Alfie Shingleston, have said that in poor weather, the ships discharged their cargoes no more than a few hundred metres off shore. “There is credible evidence that a significant amount of material never made it to the site,” says one scientist from the Marine Laboratory. He believes that munitions ended up in unauthorised dumps to the north and south of the dyke and possibly in the Solway Firth. “Out of sight, out of mind was the prime criterion at the time,” he says.

          According to a letter sent by the MoD in June to researchers at the University of Liverpool, the MoD dispatched vast amounts of old weapons to Beaufort’s Dyke. The ministry dumped some 14,000 tons of 5-inch artillery rockets filled with poisonous phosgene gas in the trench between July and October 1945. Over the following three years, it consigned 135,000 tons of conventional munitions there, and every year “into the late 1950s” another 20,000 tons ended up in the dyke.

          By the early 1970s, the discharges had reduced to about 3000 tons a year, says the MoD. “In most cases” the dumped munitions were defused, although some weapons may still have been live. The MoD thinks the area of Beaufort’s Dyke was “probably” used before 1945, “possibly” as early as 1920. Disposal then may not have been confined to the site defined in 1945, it says. The dyke was last used for “general munitions dumping” in 1973, although the MoD reveals that “one emergency dump of a small number of 40 millimetre shells took place in 1976”.

          The phosphorus bombs are not the first objects to return to land. Over the past five years, spring tides have washed up about 700 antitank grenades and other weapons on the Isle of Man and the coast of Northern Ireland. David Long, a marine geologist from the British Geological Survey in Edinburgh, says that this lethal jetsam is carried by strong southeasterly currents that flow from the southern end of Beaufort’s Dyke. Similarly strong currents, reaching 1.5 metres a second, flow north from the dyke’s northern end.

          Beaufort’s Dyke is not the only military dump off Scotland’s west coast. Statements from the MoD also reveal that between 1945 and 1957 it scuttled 24 ships packed with 137,000 tons of chemical weapons at two sites in the Atlantic. One is 1600 kilometres southwest of Land’s End, around Hurds Deep, but the other is a large area beginning 100 kilometres northwest of Northern Ireland and southeast of Rockall Deep. Eight of the ships are sitting at depths of less than 2000 metres, and the shallowest is in 500 metres of water. Both sites are also home to thousands of tons of radioactive waste from Britain’s nuclear programme.

          Late last month, the armed forces minister Nicholas Soames told Parliament that the material dumped in the Atlantic includes 17,000 tons of captured German bombs filled with the nerve gas tabun. The scientists at the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen say that another nerve gas, sarin, together with phosgene, tear gas and mustard gas, have also been dumped.

          The MoD has always maintained that there is no scientific evidence to suggest any significant harm to human health or the marine environment from its dumps – so long as they remain undisturbed. “The combined effects of dilution, dispersion, hydrolysis and low temperatures act to reduce the toxic potential of munition materials,” says a senior MoD official.

          “There is no evidence because no one has looked for any,” says the scientist from the Marine Laboratory in Aberdeen. He says fishermen in the Baltic, another dumping site for Second World War chemical weapons, have been severely burnt by mustard gas. “If canisters were raised from the seabed and leaked, they could kill fishermen,” he warns. Fishermen in the Firth of Clyde and the North Channel say they often find munitions in their nets.

          Although phosgene, tabun and sarin should be hydrolysed in seawater into relatively harmless by-products, mustard gas is likely to persist. It is heavier than water and comparatively insoluble, so that when it leaks it tends to form an oily layer on the seabed. According to the Marine Laboratory, it could contaminate fish.

          In the postwar years, the MoD chose its dumping zones partly because they were far away from commercial fisheries. Since then, however, declining populations of more easily caught species combined with advances in fishing technology have driven fishermen to further and deeper waters. Prawns are now fished just north of Beaufort’s Dyke and there is a hake fishery in the dyke itself. Farther out to sea, fishermen trawl down to 1800 metres for deep sea species such as the orange roughy.

          Fishing bans

          Most marine scientists now agree that comprehensive surveys of the dump sites are needed to find out precisely what is in them, and what state the munitions are in. If there are any doubts about the safety of a site, government experts say the most that could be done would be to ban fishing and other underwater activities in the area. In this case, fishing could end up being banned in most of the North Channel and Irish Sea, says Paul Johnston, a marine pollution expert at the University of Exeter. This would be an unacceptable curb on fishermen. “If the weapons are removable, they should be removed as soon as possible otherwise we will end up with a series of problems,” he says.

          The phosphorus bombs are straws in the wind, says Johnston. They have come ashore first because they are so buoyant, but he predicts that there could be worse to follow. It is possible, he says, that intact phosgene containers could separate from their rockets and wash ashore. “The effects are inherently unpredictable,” says Johnston, “but there is a very clear risk of personal injury.”

          Perhaps this is what Sub Lieutenant Andrew Bowie means by ‘taking back control’ of our waters.
          Scotland: England’s dumping ground.

          A bridge to owhere from nowhere across a minefield.

      • Looney tunes right enough Robert. Anyone else with me when I say that all politicians / councillors should be subject to psychological testing before they get anywhere near holding public office? A basic IQ test wouldn’t go amiss either.

        Well I don’t want that bridge either Eilidh. In fact I’m looking forward to a hard border between Scotland and England. The very thought of thousands of morons blowing their wee tin whistles, banging on drums and spewing out their venom back and forwards between NIreland and Scotland, constantly no doubt, just fills me with dread. Let’s hope that we are out of this Union before they can figure out how to build the bridge over the millions of tons of conventional and chemical munitions that they dumped in our seas.

        High time that the Scots woke up and smelled the coffee. Better still put up a real fight to rid ourselves of these bl**dy reprobates.

        Then again maybe wee BBC Brewer will decide to enlighten the Scots on this subject next Sunday? Eh?

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort%27s_Dyke

  165. Great stuff Jack.
    Maybe they should consider the route between Campbeltown and Antrim, you know the Short route.
    Wee snag as you point out for the EuroHighway between Stranraer and Gretna, the route Campbettown and Glasgow takes around 3 hours at best on very slow A class roads with the Rest and Be Thankful just another of the snags.
    The town of Girvan has a bye-pass, Maybole’s is under construction but Ballentrae is then a bottleneck.
    Oh look, there’s a squirrel.
    The high speed floating bridge, the catamarans, were removed from the Irvine due to the maintenance costs and there isn’t enough traffic on the summer Campbeltown/Antrim ferry to make it viable.
    I have a friend that has a hut at Lendlefoot, you can see the ferry traffic in batches of about 15 minutes going North, he times his return to Ayr to start as the ferry docks, thus missing the trucks.
    Weekends have numerous Ulster buses carrying football supporters on the road.
    Huge expense for small amounts of traffic.

  166. A further comment on Bawjaws Fairy Bridge from what i have read from various sources i can only conclude no one knows or will admit what exactly has been dumped there , I believe Secrecy will play a big part of this Clown Act being quietly dropped ,
    There is a real Fairy Bridge on the Isle of Man and bus passengers are obliged to stand up and salute the fairies before the bus crosses maybe Bawjaws should keep that in mind before he opens his Gob and we hear the usual yak yak yak well it’s hard to describe that jabbering sound he makes .

  167. The tunnel built, with EU funds, into Dublin was hardly used because it cost a few euros tariff. The Skye and Forth Road Bridge had tariffs. The magnificent Queensferry Crossing has been built easing congestion.

    A bridge too far. If they want to build a bridge. They can but not with Scottish monies.

    Scotland had to pay for all the tunnels and bridges in the South. Still having to contribute to HS2, Hinkley Point, Trident etc. Just a waste of money. Scotland needs the revenues and funds spent in Scotland. To cut journey times and emissions. It took took forty years before the AWPR was built. All the Oil revenues went south to fund London S/E.

    There are hubs being planned and constructed in Scotland for international and EU trade routes at Prestonpans and the North of Scotland. International trade east to west. More direct Ferries routes to Europe.

    Japan is considering leaking contaminated nuclear substances into the ocean. Hinkley Point is being built near the sea.

  168. There are motorways going from North to South throughout Ireland built with EU funding. Good journeys. Reunification is quite possible demographically.

    Dublin is quite congested but has the trams.

  169. If the Irish had waited -5 years Ireland would not have been Partitioned.

    Partition 1923. Universal Suffrage 1928. Ireland could have voted for Home Rule/Independence. Already on the cards. Home Rule Bill passed. Land League agitation.

    Waiting would have saved nearly 100 years of strife and bloodshed. Westminster blatant interference.

    Scotland has gone through the Ballot Box because it could be done.

    • Petra, following on from a female hack on the Herald staff writing an ‘ SNP Peaked’ piece of dribble the other day when she lists the litany of SNP Bad failures from hospitals to the ferry contract, education, the police, Derek MacKay’s fall from grace, and the upcoming Salmond The Sex pest Trial, which she and her fellow Brit Nat Pack have gleefully trailed for weeks now, as the final nail in the Independence Movement’s coffin, (we are millions strong, and not the ‘SNP’, and made no statement that Indyref 1 was ‘once in a lifetime’ btw) it occurred to me that no one can seriously consider that Jackson Carlaw, spectacularly failed businessman, and his hotch-potch of Listory hangers on, or the Shop Steward Richard Leonard, and his grizzled bunch of old Labour dinosaurs could form an alternative government to run Scotland.
      It is ridiculous beyond words.

      Or, now stop laughing at the back now, Willie Rennie and his Famous Five could go into Coalition with either of the Brit Nats and mirror the bang up job of Nick Clegg (‘I apologise’) and The Scrap Tuition Fees Lib Dem Head Office in bed with Cameron and the Bullingdon Boys.

      On trade with England: nobody seems to have disputed this ‘60% trade with England’ trope.

      I have a sense it is a lie, made up by London.

      On a border with England come Self Determination?
      As the newly formed 28th EU state, we shall have the same border arrangements with England as the other members of the EU, simples.
      With an added codicil.

      The Common Travel Area arrangements which the UK has with Ireland will apply in Scotland.
      Like the citizens of the North of Ireland, Scots will have ‘dual nationality’, if they so wish.
      English born Scots citizens will have the right to retain a rUK passport and apply for a Scottish/EU passport.

      If Asda, Morrisons, Tesco, wish to continue ‘trading’ in Scotland, i.e., keeping stores open Up Here, selling Scottish produce to Scottish customers, which is counted as part of this farcical ‘60%’ of Scotland’s trade with England, then they’ll need to do what they do when operating in France Italy Germany Spain or Ireland. Set up Head ofic es in Scotland.

      Can someone with more time and expertise (Business for Scotland?) debunk this 60% trade with England lie, and ridicule the notion with which the vermillion faced Carlaw and the rest of the Better Together Brit Nats threaten their fellow Scots, that England during EU Brexit negotiations will cease trading with Scotland as a ‘punishment’ for coming out of their precious Union?

      I for one will welcome a border. It’ll stop lorry loads of MOD surplus munitions heading North, meandering from Gretna to Stranraer, and dumped in the North Channel.

      The notion that MacKay’s fall from grace, and the Salmond trial, no matter how lurid, or not, will signal the Death of the Independence Movement is not only insulting, but laughable in equal measures.
      In fact, the grubby way the Dead Tree Scrollers have wallowed in this ‘scandal’ has merely strengthened our resolve.

      I will queue all night to get my Scottish passport.

      Free al last, free at last, Lord Almighty, free at last.

      • The thing that they haven’t taken into account Jack is that once you’ve had your eyes opened and become a committ